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Pay to win

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EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#541 - 2012-07-19 20:16:31 UTC
Overseer Aliena wrote:

I make decisions for me and nobody else. What somebody else does with their money is their business. If they want to create an army of mining ships and run their own corp, hey, great for them. I. Don't. Give. A. ****. They are putting forth the effort to compete against larger groups and that has precisely Jack to do with my goals in game. I understand that I will not have the same output as other corps, and I accept that. I will not ask that other people should be reduced in efficiency because I refuse to keep up.


But there are very easy fixes for you to have the option of having mundane stuff usually done by alts -whether it's solo or corp action- done by npc entities, regardless if you use alts or not.

Those fixes cannot happen, because CCP gets a revenue from alts, which are devoted, amongst other things, to those low-maintenance zero-input tasks.

By the way, how many higher-ups in any decent-sized corp have zero alts? I'd guess zero as well, since those tasks (intel, haul, offgrid boost, afk mission grind) cannot be realistically assigned to a RL person, who'd get bored as hell. Solo or corp, alts are mandatory.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#542 - 2012-07-19 20:17:25 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:



You could have read what I've already linked a dozen times and saved yourself the pain of having the moves like tippia. Some people cannot use alts and have no access to help from other players etc

Your scenario addresses people who all use alts. This is not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about what kind of options to level the playfield are there available for solo players who cannot use alts, to put them on the same level of efficiency as solo players who do use them? Solo, as in solo, no friends or corpmates.



So. What you are saying......

Is that the player who plays alone, and without Alts. got no corp, no mates. is at a disadvantage in an MMO?

Oh well you win some, and you lose some, but that is Priceless
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#543 - 2012-07-19 20:23:37 UTC  |  Edited by: EpicFailTroll
malcovas Henderson wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:



You could have read what I've already linked a dozen times and saved yourself the pain of having the moves like tippia. Some people cannot use alts and have no access to help from other players etc

Your scenario addresses people who all use alts. This is not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about what kind of options to level the playfield are there available for solo players who cannot use alts, to put them on the same level of efficiency as solo players who do use them? Solo, as in solo, no friends or corpmates.



So. What you are saying......

Is that the player who plays alone, and without Alts. got no corp, no mates. is at a disadvantage in an MMO?

Oh well you win some, and you lose some, but that is Priceless




He is only at a very slight and easily dismissable disadvantage in any other MMO than EvE. Most of them are also designed to accommodate this scrubby and pubbie portion of the playerbase that would rather be single amongst others, while enjoying distant interaction with said others.

He's absolutely boned in EvE. Unless he invests in alts!

"The Power of 2 special offer is back! From now until Sunday, July 22, 2012, you will be able to create a new account with 180 days of game time for the low price of £34.99 or 3 PLEX.

Having that extra pilot at your disposal can often turn the tides on a difficult mission or shift a taxing task into a more efficient venture. A second account also means more places you can be at once, which makes monitoring the markets easier, gathering intel faster, and mining ops more productive"

But what if his playstyle does not agree with that? what if he is technically challenged? what if he's casual scum, and cannot reliably fund them through isk?


I, for one, don't mind that such scrubs are at a disadvantage. You seem to resent that however, since you vehemently try to uphold that they aren't.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#544 - 2012-07-19 20:31:23 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:



He is at a very slight and easily dismissable in any MMO. Most of them are also designed to accommodate this scrubby and pubbie portion of the playerbase that would rather be single amongst others, while enjoying distant interaction with said others.

He's absolutely boned in EvE. Unless he invests in alts!

"The Power of 2 special offer is back! From now until Sunday, July 22, 2012, you will be able to create a new account with 180 days of game time for the low price of £34.99 or 3 PLEX.

Having that extra pilot at your disposal can often turn the tides on a difficult mission or shift a taxing task into a more efficient venture. A second account also means more places you can be at once, which makes monitoring the markets easier, gathering intel faster, and mining ops more productive"

But what if his playstyle does not agree with that? what if he is technically challenged? what if he's casual scum, and cannot reliably fund them through isk?


I, for one, don't mind that such scrubs are at a disadvantage. You seem to resent that however, since you vehemently try to uphold that they aren't.



I have not played very many MMO's I must confess. All but one, has needed the cooperation of a group to succeed at all Lvls of the game. Infact EVE is the only one I have played where you can be totally Successful solo.
Overseer Aliena
Lord of Wars
#545 - 2012-07-19 20:33:45 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
cannot be realistically assigned to a RL person, who'd get bored as hell.


You mean the same RL people who are controlling the alts? Otherwise alts would then be referred to as bots, and we all know bots are bad. ******* hell. Hey guess what, either way somebody is performing a multiparty function!

ps If you can't be ass'd to participate in corp functions, i.e. transport, escort, station fueling....then you fail as a corp. If you don't have the balls to ask such a simple request of your corpmates, then you fail as a corp leader.


EpicFail wrote:
But there are very easy fixes for you to have the option of having mundane stuff usually done by alts -whether it's solo or corp action- done by npc entities, regardless if you use alts or not.


Well that's great, why don't you try advocating for that instead of trying to **** up other players for putting in more effort than you? And the whole because of revenue excuse is such a cop out. DAOC, the game of bots, has npc's in the BG's that allow players to purchase all of the exact same buffs that you can get from a bot. The new star wars game give you the ability to purchase npc's to run tasks for you and yet players still run with multiple accounts there as well. If you want to be taken seriously then I would go with resources.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#546 - 2012-07-19 20:44:24 UTC
Still not seeing any P2W.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#547 - 2012-07-19 21:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: EpicFailTroll
Overseer Aliena wrote:


You mean the same RL people who are controlling the alts? Otherwise alts would then be referred to as bots, and we all know bots are bad. ******* hell. Hey guess what, either way somebody is performing a multiparty function!

ps If you can't be ass'd to participate in corp functions, i.e. transport, escort, station fueling....then you fail as a corp. If you don't have the balls to ask such a simple request of your corpmates, then you fail as a corp leader.


A static scout alt is very much akin to a bot, an afk lvl4 grinder is very much akin to a bot, a semi-afk hauler is akin to a bot etc, but they require minimum input, so, they're not bots, according to CCP.

Corp leaders don't assign those tasks to people, because they rightfully think that their recruitees might resign and go seek fun somewhere else, if they are assigned to static scout in 1337-D1KS for hours.


EpicFail wrote:

Well that's great, why don't you try advocating for that instead of trying to **** up other players for putting in more effort than you? And the whole because of revenue excuse is such a cop out. DAOC, the game of bots, has npc's in the BG's that allow players to purchase all of the exact same buffs that you can get from a bot. The new star wars game give you the ability to purchase npc's to run tasks for you and yet players still run with multiple accounts there as well. If you want to be taken seriously then I would go with resources.



Advocating such fixes would require that the public opinion acknowledges that there is indeed a problem with certain tasks being all too conveniently fulfilled by alts, or only realistically assignable to them only. As of now, the vocal majority of this here place deems there is none, while the evidence leads to think that there indeed is.

And nobody would need hard data to state that the ratio of alts per player must be laughably low in any MMO compared to EvE, since in EvE they are pretty much mandatory and require low to zero ingame maintenance to perform tasks that realistically can only be assigned to them, while in any other MMO, it's very hard to control several at once.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#548 - 2012-07-19 21:18:52 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:



Advocating such fixes would require that the public opinion acknowledges that there is indeed a problem with certain tasks being all too conveniently fulfilled by alts, or only realistically assignable to them only. As of now, the vocal majority of this here place deems there is none, while the evidence leads to think that there indeed is.

And nobody would need hard data to state that the ratio of alts per player must be laughably low in any MMO compared to EvE, since in EvE they are pretty much mandatory and require low to zero ingame maintenance to perform tasks that realistically can only be assigned to them.



The Vocal majority are stipulating there is no P2W

Your Arguement revolves around the solo player who shouldnt be playing an MMO. You have finally admitted that you want, ALL corps removed, you want ALL forms of cooperation removed. You want ALL possible use of Fleets removed. Why are you playing this game again?
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#549 - 2012-07-19 21:23:45 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:

The Vocal majority are stipulating there is no P2W

Your Arguement revolves around the solo player who shouldnt be playing an MMO. You have finally admitted that you want, ALL corps removed, you want ALL forms of cooperation removed. You want ALL possible use of Fleets removed. Why are you playing this game again?


And their argument for this, the use of alts, being no P2W, is that whatever a player paying for alts does, you can do solo, or with others, which is quite untrue, as EFT has demonstrated.

But it seems you've hit the nail on the head: solo players shouldn't play MMO, and I want all forms of cooperation removed, since I want to curb alt usage.
Overseer Aliena
Lord of Wars
#550 - 2012-07-19 21:31:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Overseer Aliena
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Overseer Aliena wrote:


You mean the same RL people who are controlling the alts? Otherwise alts would then be referred to as bots, and we all know bots are bad. ******* hell. Hey guess what, either way somebody is performing a multiparty function!

ps If you can't be ass'd to participate in corp functions, i.e. transport, escort, station fueling....then you fail as a corp. If you don't have the balls to ask such a simple request of your corpmates, then you fail as a corp leader.


A static scout alt is very much akin to a bot, an afk lvl4 grinder is very much akin to a bot, a semi-afk hauler is akin to a bot etc, but they require minimum input, so, they're not bots, according to CCP.

Corp leaders don't assign those tasks to people, because they rightfully think that their recruitees might resign and go seek fun somewhere else, if they are assigned to static scout in 1337-D1KS for hours.


Bots are programs devised to emulate the key functions and mouse clicks of a player. Being AFK in any of those scenarios requires no mouse clicks. Therefore you have no ******* clue what you are even talking about. I'm starting to think that the title of that other thread is true.

I also need an affidavit confirming that you speak on behalf of the board of highly esteemed corporate peers as you appear to be doing so. I also would like to see a list of Mittens 782 alt accounts as he alone is patrolling each check point into goon space and running their entire logistics program while his mates are BS'ing in a station somewhere else. That man just became a god to me.

I wish I could be the same way in my corp but unfortunately I loathe freeloaders. If you want the corp to back you, then be prepared to back the corp. If you can't handle that then by all means go find some worthless group that will more than likely dissolve within the month.


EpicFail wrote:


Advocating such fixes would require that the public opinion acknowledges that there is indeed a problem with certain tasks being all too conveniently fulfilled by alts, or only realistically assignable to them only. As of now, the vocal majority of this here place deems there is none, while the evidence leads to think that there indeed is.

And nobody would need hard data to state that the ratio of alts per player must be laughably low in any MMO compared to EvE, since in EvE they are pretty much mandatory and require low to zero ingame maintenance to perform tasks that realistically can only be assigned to them.


There isn't a problem. The exact same tasks are being handled by other multiparty entities as well. In fact players have even been creative enough to make a business out of some of these so called menial tasks. Can you imagine that, getting paid to clean up somebodies mission. Taking contracts to haul **** across space. Opening up a market intel channel to discuss prices across the 'verse. Course we'll have always have a few who would rather lay down and die.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#551 - 2012-07-19 22:02:13 UTC
Tell me, Courage Wolf, why are there so many ingame alts, and why are they so heavily advertised by CCP?

Surely if all the menial yet mandatory tasks were so easy and fun to fulfill by a single player (whether solo or corpie), instead of having to pass through hurdles and hurdles (in the case of a solo player), nopbody would bother with alts.

But then again, how, from a business point of view, would fixing gameplay so that those tasks require interaction -preferably enjoyable-, make sense? Since alts bring revenue.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#552 - 2012-07-19 22:06:03 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
He is at a very slight and easily dismissable in any MMO. Most of them are also designed to accommodate this scrubby and pubbie portion of the playerbase that would rather be single amongst others, while enjoying distant interaction with said others.

He's absolutely boned in EvE. Unless he invests in alts!

"The Power of 2 special offer is back! From now until Sunday, July 22, 2012, you will be able to create a new account with 180 days of game time for the low price of £34.99 or 3 PLEX.

Having that extra pilot at your disposal can often turn the tides on a difficult mission or shift a taxing task into a more efficient venture. A second account also means more places you can be at once, which makes monitoring the markets easier, gathering intel faster, and mining ops more productive"

But what if his playstyle does not agree with that? what if he is technically challenged? what if he's casual scum, and cannot reliably fund them through isk?


Or what if he finds the idea of spending real money (above and beyond the admittance fee) to influence the sandbox a violation of that which he likes most about the entire concept of EVE? The moment we cross that line, EVE ceases to be a science fiction simulator and becomes just another silly game. May as well go play League of Legends or pump quarters into Street Fighter II down at the arcade.

I see EVE getting farther and farther from its roots, farther from that "ultimate science fiction simulator" vision every time more of these sorts of "features" are added, and it saddens me. Microtransactions of any sort (whether it's gold ammo, monocles, or extra accounts) really don't have any place in an interactive simulator. Then again, neither does a faucet/sink economy system or underwater physics within a spaceship context. Sad

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#553 - 2012-07-19 22:09:27 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:

Advocating such fixes would require that the public opinion acknowledges that there is indeed a problem with certain tasks being all too conveniently fulfilled by alts, or only realistically assignable to them only. As of now, the vocal majority of this here place deems there is none, while the evidence leads to think that there indeed is.


Lots of truth here. If we can get EVE over this hump, it'll be a much better game for it.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Overseer Aliena
Lord of Wars
#554 - 2012-07-19 23:02:06 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Tell me, Courage Wolf, why are there so many ingame alts, and why are they so heavily advertised by CCP?


We've discussed the main basis several times over but it seems you are illiterate. Alts perform Multiparty functions like those of a corpmate.

Corp's may hold several types of Op's. In a mission OP every corp member will grab a mission and several will pile drive each mission while one guy will come in behind them and clean up. An alt in turn can clean up one room while you are still missioning in the other. That pilot has decided to perform a multiparty function on his own accord.

In a mining OP several players will enter the same belt and either mine into one or more jetcans or an orca while a transport hauls it back to the station. Or a single player can perform the same multiparty function on his own accord.

A player may be hauling some materials for himself or the corp to sell on the market while other corp members are handling other aspects of the corp. An Alt may be hauling goods to be sold on the market while he handles other aspects of his corp, thus performing a multiparty function on his own.

A corp may be watching a gate waiting for intruders to come on through. An alt may be cloaked off the gate ready to handle 1 or more bad guys allowing the player to perform multiparty functions.

Lastly, the program is called Invite a friend. Invite a friend. Are you your only friend? The fact that people use it to make alts is just a by product of the sale.

I know it sounds crazy and all, but some people out there actually enjoy multiboxing. Ever heard of Team Wizzy? Team Necro? Team Ranger? Chribba? If they feel that they can perform the same duties and actions the same as a corp of several players, who are we to tell them they can't.

EpicFailTroll wrote:
Surely if all the menial yet mandatory tasks were so easy and fun to fulfill by a single player (whether solo or corpie), instead of having to pass through hurdles and hurdles (in the case of a solo player), nopbody would bother with alts.

But then again, how, from a business point of view, would fixing gameplay so that those tasks require interaction -preferably enjoyable-, make sense? Since alts bring revenue.


All these tasks that seem to be such a burden for you are fulfilled by everybody regardless of how many accounts or players are present. They are something that just needs to get done. The only difference that we see present here is time. One person mining is going to take a while to complete his task and he won't obtain much yield. Several entities mining is going to produce much more efficiency and yield in the same amount of time. One person is going to take longer refuelling a station and manufacter many spaceships than it will for multiple entities. A single, casual player is not going to accomplish that of a small corporation and the corporation should not be penalized because of that fact. If the single player cannot accept this well tough. Such a horrible ordeal to have to actually work to achieve something.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#555 - 2012-07-19 23:30:34 UTC
But this program is really not called invite a friend, is it? It's called the Power of Two, and let's read -yet again-, what it says:

"The Power of 2 special offer is back! From now until Sunday, July 22, 2012, you will be able to create a new account with 180 days of game time for the low price of £34.99 or 3 PLEX.

Having that extra pilot at your disposal can often turn the tides on a difficult mission or shift a taxing task into a more efficient venture. A second account also means more places you can be at once, which makes monitoring the markets easier, gathering intel faster, and mining ops more productive."

- You seem to think I want alts removed altogether. While this would be awesome, it's not happening. However, there could be ingame options for the player who does not want to use them, and who wishes to play somewhat solo, to do menial stuff that is dumped on semi, or completely afk, alts. This has a lot to do with intel, for example, since solo flying without a scouting alt is not really realistic, is it now? For other examples, read this.
- Reading it again might also open your eyes on the fact that in no way do I wish the effectiveness of corps reduced, nor that of a single player through the use of alts. I merely wish that ingame options for the single alt-less solo player were implemented, that could allow him the same access to convenience that a single alt-funding solo player has, without having to ask assistance from other people -just like the alt-funding player, who can do everything on its own-.

Until such options are implemented, alts are really P2W, because the options they provide are not accessible to said solo alt-less player -who will not or cannot use them, such as explained in the link above-.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#556 - 2012-07-19 23:47:37 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
But this program is really not called invite a friend, is it? It's called the Power of Two, and let's read -yet again-, what it says:

"The Power of 2 special offer is back! From now until Sunday, July 22, 2012, you will be able to create a new account with 180 days of game time for the low price of £34.99 or 3 PLEX.

Having that extra pilot at your disposal can often turn the tides on a difficult mission or shift a taxing task into a more efficient venture. A second account also means more places you can be at once, which makes monitoring the markets easier, gathering intel faster, and mining ops more productive."

- You seem to think I want alts removed altogether. While this would be awesome, it's not happening. However, there could be ingame options for the player who does not want to use them, and who wishes to play somewhat solo, to do menial stuff that is dumped on semi, or completely afk, alts. This has a lot to do with intel, for example, since solo flying without a scouting alt is not really realistic, is it now? For other examples, read this.
- Reading it again might also open your eyes on the fact that in no way do I wish the effectiveness of corps reduced, nor that of a single player through the use of alts. I merely wish that ingame options for the single alt-less solo player were implemented, that could allow him the same access to convenience that a single alt-funding solo player has, without having to ask assistance from other people -just like the alt-funding player, who can do everything on its own-.

Until such options are implemented, alts are really P2W, because the options they provide are not accessible to said solo alt-less player -who will not or cannot use them, such as explained in the link above-.




Seriously are you totally that dense?

You want the solo player to have EXACTLY the same advantages of Corps, Fleets or Alts? Seriously?

So a Solo miner should be able to transport his ore Straight into the station?
So a Solo combat pilot can get all the buffs and Firepower of a 100 man Fleet?
So a Solo player gets gate intel while ratting Pop up with the Name, ship Corp and alliance of all jumpers?

Seriously?
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#557 - 2012-07-19 23:52:07 UTC
Can you even process what you read -if you've read it at all-? How can you create such assumptions?

Seriously? read the linked post, seriously.
Overseer Aliena
Lord of Wars
#558 - 2012-07-19 23:54:07 UTC
How is solo flying without a scout not realistic? Are you incapable of bypassing a gate camp? If your alt scout gets popped do you just sit out there in no mans land because you suddenly can't fly back for fear of a group coming in behind you? Personally I've never had this issue you speak of.

If you choose to be alone then that is what you are. I'm sorry that it is such a hard life for you but you made that choice on your own free will. There are in fact many options to alleviate the pain of keeping ones house tidy, such as hiring another player to come scoop up your mission jump (I believe the going rate is 30% of earnings), contracting your goods to be hauled from point A to Point B, using the market intel channels to get prices, or heaven forbid just simply breaking down and becoming a teamplayer. Of course the majority of those will cost a fee but what you are obviously looking for is a free hand out. I'm starting to think I'm dealing with a member of 99%.

I'm sorry that a menial task in a video game is so harsh for one to handle, perhaps we can point you in the direction of something easier. If you want to lobby for bots, because that is what you are asking for, then lobby for bots and quit trying to **** over those that actually work for their earnings/satisfaction/enjoyment.

And just a FYI, remember to scale your concepts up. In the event that you get bots so will everyone else meaning that you just made players with alts and corps with players that much more efficient, meaning that overall everyone remains exactly where they are now.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#559 - 2012-07-20 00:03:19 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Can you even process what you read -if you've read it at all-? How can you create such assumptions?

Seriously? read the linked post, seriously.



I dont need too. Its all in that quote

To compete with a miner/hauler fleet, the solo miner has to be able to get his ore back to the station, without leaving the Belt. The only way to do that is either give the solo player the cargo space of an orca, or instant transport back to station

To compete with a 100 man fleet the solo combat pilot will need the buff, and fire power of that fleet. Also the ability to shoot every one of them at the same time.

Ratting in 0.0 is dangerous without gate watching. To be able to perform this as if in a fleet. The solo Ratter would need the gates to pass the intel onto him as to who is passing through the gates.

These are but a few examples of where levelling the playing field would be needed in YOUR EVE.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#560 - 2012-07-20 00:05:10 UTC
But, Courage Wolf, I'm not lobbying for the efficiency of other entities to be diminished -though the fact that a single player can achieve on its own corp efficiency is probably a bit disturbing-, only for the efficiency of the solo, alt-less player, to be enhanced. If more power to other entities, no problem. But at this very moment, in EvE, alts are mandatory, and that is quite a huge problem.

All the player-driven services you give as examples are only available if, well, they're available, and it must be assumed that sometimes they are not, giving the alt-funding player an edge that cannot be acquired through ingame means for the alt-less player -which was the crux of the derping for the people discussing P2W-.