These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Pay to win

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#461 - 2012-07-18 16:30:48 UTC
Cameron Cahill wrote:
Zyress wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Zyress wrote:
Ok the 16 mil sp character that someone bought doesn't have an advantage over another 16 mil sp character, but the week old player that bought a 16 mil sp character with RL money spent on plex does have an advantage over the week old character that didn't buy his character. It may not be PTW but its using out of games means to gain in game advantage. Call it what you will. I think of it as a cheat.



there is nothing to stop the week old player from gaining in game isk and purchasing his own 16 mil sp alt?


I'd be fine with that if the week old player that bought his 16 mil sp charcater had used ingame methods to get his plex but he didn't he used out of game methods, and thats a very savy player that at one week has figured out how to make the isk to buy a 16 mil sp character in game.


Goon newbies do it every week, people are so keen to give their money away....


Well then maybe the players of this game aren't as smart as they like to say they are compared to other mmo players.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#462 - 2012-07-18 16:32:31 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:


Oh god...

Yea, you could counter like that if you blindly assume that the char-buyer doesn't have that experience. Maybe he does. Maybe he had 2 years of time on studying how to play with that char instead of grinding missions, mining, exploration, trade, whatever mind-numbing activity it is that the other guy has been doing in the meanwhile.

Eve Online: Where people will tell you that saving 2 years of your life isn't an advantage. Lol



So. what you are saying is, that playing something for 2 yrs gains you no experience?.

Seriously?

What is the difference between a total noob and a pro player buying an alt, that the noob is not P2W but the pro is? they are both buying the same player. If one is P2W then it follows the other must be too. So yes 2yrs experience over a noob buying an Alt is an advantage, AND a counter arguement
Cameron Cahill
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#463 - 2012-07-18 16:37:05 UTC
Zyress wrote:
Cameron Cahill wrote:
Zyress wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Zyress wrote:
Ok the 16 mil sp character that someone bought doesn't have an advantage over another 16 mil sp character, but the week old player that bought a 16 mil sp character with RL money spent on plex does have an advantage over the week old character that didn't buy his character. It may not be PTW but its using out of games means to gain in game advantage. Call it what you will. I think of it as a cheat.



there is nothing to stop the week old player from gaining in game isk and purchasing his own 16 mil sp alt?


I'd be fine with that if the week old player that bought his 16 mil sp charcater had used ingame methods to get his plex but he didn't he used out of game methods, and thats a very savy player that at one week has figured out how to make the isk to buy a 16 mil sp character in game.


Goon newbies do it every week, people are so keen to give their money away....


Well then maybe the players of this game aren't as smart as they like to say they are compared to other mmo players.


Most are. The ones who come from other mmos tend to be the easiest marks.
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#464 - 2012-07-18 16:38:43 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
malcovas Henderson wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:


Oh god...

Yea, you could counter like that if you blindly assume that the char-buyer doesn't have that experience. Maybe he does. Maybe he had 2 years of time on studying how to play with that char instead of grinding missions, mining, exploration, trade, whatever mind-numbing activity it is that the other guy has been doing in the meanwhile.

Eve Online: Where people will tell you that saving 2 years of your life isn't an advantage. Lol



So. what you are saying is, that playing something for 2 yrs gains you no experience?.

Seriously?

What is the difference between a total noob and a pro player buying an alt, that the noob is not P2W but the pro is? they are both buying the same player. If one is P2W then it follows the other must be too. So yes 2yrs experience over a noob buying an Alt is an advantage, AND a counter arguement



Ladies and gentleman, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it.

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#465 - 2012-07-18 16:39:09 UTC
I will now sum up this thread.

One side feels that P2W means any advantage that can be gained through RL money (that is an in game advantage).

The other side feels that P2W only applies to purchasable advantages that can only be purchased via RL money.



Neither side will agree on whether EVE is P2W because they disagree on the definition of the term.

And unfortunately, neither side is right (or wrong I guess), as there is no hard and fast definition of the term.

And so we will go around this circle until someone gives up.




Now, where individuals are wrong is that they think someone is stupid, or foolish, or somesuch for using either definition. Because the definitions are just opinions.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#466 - 2012-07-18 16:48:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Zyress wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Zyress wrote:
Ok the 16 mil sp character that someone bought doesn't have an advantage over another 16 mil sp character, but the week old player that bought a 16 mil sp character with RL money spent on plex does have an advantage over the week old character that didn't buy his character. It may not be PTW but its using out of games means to gain in game advantage. Call it what you will. I think of it as a cheat.



there is nothing to stop the week old player from gaining in game isk and purchasing his own 16 mil sp alt?


I'd be fine with that if the week old player that bought his 16 mil sp charcater had used ingame methods to get his plex but he didn't he used out of game methods, and thats a very savy player that at one week has figured out how to make the isk to buy a 16 mil sp character in game.


When a person buys an alt he pays X amount of money.

When a person takes the time to train up an alt, he spends a similar amount of money via his subscrription.

The only thing that is different is WHO is spending the time to train up the alt (the training time remains the same) and are they willing to trade that time spent for ISK.

If they guy who training the alt needs to sell it for ISK, by selling it to you he gets what he want's/needs. When you buy it you get what you want/need.

Do you see why this isn't a problem yet?

Nothing was created from nothing, it is simply a question of redistributing that something (in this case skill training time) to someone else for a fee.

When you add to it the fact that that same character can just as easily be purchased by anyone for ISK made solely in game, the pay to win argument is dead in the water.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#467 - 2012-07-18 16:49:15 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
I will now sum up this thread.

One side feels that P2W means any advantage that can be gained through RL money (that is an in game advantage).

The other side feels that P2W only applies to purchasable advantages that can only be purchased via RL money.



Neither side will agree on whether EVE is P2W because they disagree on the definition of the term.

And unfortunately, neither side is right (or wrong I guess), as there is no hard and fast definition of the term.

And so we will go around this circle until someone gives up.




Now, where individuals are wrong is that they think someone is stupid, or foolish, or somesuch for using either definition. Because the definitions are just opinions.


No. One sides definition of P2W is of such an extremity that, paying for ANY computer game is uniformly P2W. This would actually make the format of P2W totally redundant as a catergory. As such they still lose because it wouldnt exist as a format. Eve would still have no P2W


o7
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#468 - 2012-07-18 16:55:54 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
-

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#469 - 2012-07-18 17:07:20 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
-


That is the most sense you have made in this entire thread. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#470 - 2012-07-18 17:24:16 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:


Oh god...

Yea, you could counter like that if you blindly assume that the char-buyer doesn't have that experience. Maybe he does. Maybe he had 2 years of time on studying how to play with that char instead of grinding missions, mining, exploration, trade, whatever mind-numbing activity it is that the other guy has been doing in the meanwhile.

Eve Online: Where people will tell you that saving 2 years of your life isn't an advantage. Lol



So. what you are saying is, that playing something for 2 yrs gains you no experience?.

Seriously?

What is the difference between a total noob and a pro player buying an alt, that the noob is not P2W but the pro is? they are both buying the same player. If one is P2W then it follows the other must be too. So yes 2yrs experience over a noob buying an Alt is an advantage, AND a counter arguement




I wonder how advantageous this kid was.

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#471 - 2012-07-18 17:26:14 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:
-


That is the most sense you have made in this entire thread. Smile


Mirror

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#472 - 2012-07-18 17:29:07 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:
-


That is the most sense you have made in this entire thread. Smile


Mirror


PURPLE!

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#473 - 2012-07-18 17:50:25 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
I will now sum up this thread.

One side feels that P2W means any advantage that can be gained through RL money (that is an in game advantage).

The other side feels that P2W only applies to purchasable advantages that can only be purchased via RL money.



Neither side will agree on whether EVE is P2W because they disagree on the definition of the term.

And unfortunately, neither side is right (or wrong I guess), as there is no hard and fast definition of the term.

And so we will go around this circle until someone gives up.




Now, where individuals are wrong is that they think someone is stupid, or foolish, or somesuch for using either definition. Because the definitions are just opinions.


No. One sides definition of P2W is of such an extremity that, paying for ANY computer game is uniformly P2W. This would actually make the format of P2W totally redundant as a catergory. As such they still lose because it wouldnt exist as a format. Eve would still have no P2W


o7

Not entirely. Multiplayer games where nothing is purchased with out of game money other than the game itself would not, by either definition be pay to win.

You can't have pay for an advantage if you can't pay for the advantage.

Otherwise, pretty much everything else would be covered under that.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#474 - 2012-07-18 19:22:28 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
Marcus Ichiro wrote:
dexington wrote:
So the guy that find wrecks with 74 plex each day does not have an advantage over the guy never finds any?, don't really make a lot of sense...

The guy that finds a wreck with 74 plex in didn't pay to get that advantage. He played the game.

The guy who buys 74 plex didn't play the game to get that advantage. He paid for it. Roll

Except the advantage affects the non-game world, specifically you take no time to acquire them.
In game, there is no advantage as you could have also earned the ISK.

Fundamentally, you don't understand what a pay to win game is, which is why you are unable to reason why EvE is not one.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

DrSmegma
Smegma United
#475 - 2012-07-18 19:25:02 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:
Marcus Ichiro wrote:
dexington wrote:
So the guy that find wrecks with 74 plex each day does not have an advantage over the guy never finds any?, don't really make a lot of sense...

The guy that finds a wreck with 74 plex in didn't pay to get that advantage. He played the game.

The guy who buys 74 plex didn't play the game to get that advantage. He paid for it. Roll

Except the advantage affects the non-game world, specifically you take no time to acquire them.
In game, there is no advantage as you could have also earned the ISK.

Fundamentally, you don't understand what a pay to win game is, which is why you are unable to reason why EvE is not one.


Roll No u etc

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#476 - 2012-07-18 19:30:52 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:
Marcus Ichiro wrote:
dexington wrote:
So the guy that find wrecks with 74 plex each day does not have an advantage over the guy never finds any?, don't really make a lot of sense...

The guy that finds a wreck with 74 plex in didn't pay to get that advantage. He played the game.

The guy who buys 74 plex didn't play the game to get that advantage. He paid for it. Roll

Except the advantage affects the non-game world, specifically you take no time to acquire them.
In game, there is no advantage as you could have also earned the ISK.

Fundamentally, you don't understand what a pay to win game is, which is why you are unable to reason why EvE is not one.


Roll No u etc


I came for a epic retort, left terminally disappointed.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#477 - 2012-07-18 19:37:20 UTC
I just wanted to come in and say that I have bought plex which in turn has allowed me to buy several ships. And even though I have done literally nothing with these ships since I have purchased them, nor have I interacted with anybody outside of my corp, and neither do I know who I am competing with or what the goal is, I just wanted to inform you all that I have officially won at eve. Regarding this I would just like to say that I just stick around now to post on forums and skill up in stations.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Sabrina Solette
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#478 - 2012-07-18 20:06:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabrina Solette
Khanh'rhh wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:
Marcus Ichiro wrote:
dexington wrote:
So the guy that find wrecks with 74 plex each day does not have an advantage over the guy never finds any?, don't really make a lot of sense...

The guy that finds a wreck with 74 plex in didn't pay to get that advantage. He played the game.

The guy who buys 74 plex didn't play the game to get that advantage. He paid for it. Roll

Except the advantage affects the non-game world, specifically you take no time to acquire them.
In game, there is no advantage as you could have also earned the ISK.

Fundamentally, you don't understand what a pay to win game is, which is why you are unable to reason why EvE is not one.






If goods were the only factor then the advantage would not be so great but it's not the only factor, time is also a factor.

Easier to look at it as if this game was new* (yes I know PLEX was not around when this game was new). 2 characters starting out as manufacturers one buys PLEXes the other can't afford to. So the first struggles to earn enough ingame to buy skill books and implants, the second has sold the PLEX trained up cybernetics in a few days got his +4 implants and all the skill books he needs. So not only has the second got almost instant isk, far more than he needs at the start of the game he's also got a huge training head start. So he's able to grow in manufacturing and research taking even more of the market early on.

So I don't think anyone would deny that player 2 has a hugh advantage over player 1.



The argument about gold and silver ammo as being pay to win, gold ammo does not give you a clear win it gives you an advantage.

Gold ammo you can't buy ingame so people say it's pay-to-win although in reality it just gives you an advantage.
PLEX gives an advantage both in what you can buy but more importantly the time it saves you. You can't get that time back by ingame means so it's also pay-to-win.


This character is about 4 days old, started from scratch as a new player would (although I'm not new to the game) . Did the tutorials mainly to raise isk, sold everything but purchased a shuttle flew to Jita sold 6 PLEX within about 35 minutes would have been about 20 minutes if it wasn't for the fact that I was looking at other things in the market as I was entering them on 1 at a time. Now I have far more isk than this character can use atm. I mean this is how easy it is to get isk from PLEX. What would be the position of a new player without PLEX after about 4 days if they could not afford PLEX.

PLEX is a form of pay-to-win the fact it's ingame already is the reason I used it and have no problem using it, because if I didn't others would.

In the grand scheme of things the advantage I gained is nothing in comparison to characters a lot older. But if a new player had gold ammo and an older player silver that gold ammo would be worthless also.



* new only for comparison of the two players
Patrakele
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#479 - 2012-07-18 20:22:07 UTC
It's Pay to Play. That is if you have a job and don't want to spend any isk on Plexes...
Even if I spent $ on buying ETC and using ISK to get faction/officer crap, it wouldn't make me a better player - I'd still die to a 15 man gate camp if I was flying T1 or Officer...

If you want to see Pay to Win - check World of Tanks gold ammo. Provides a direct game advantage over those who don't buy it.
Sabrina Solette
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#480 - 2012-07-18 20:29:23 UTC
Patrakele wrote:
It's Pay to Play. That is if you have a job and don't want to spend any isk on Plexes...
Even if I spent $ on buying ETC and using ISK to get faction/officer crap, it wouldn't make me a better player - I'd still die to a 15 man gate camp if I was flying T1 or Officer...

If you want to see Pay to Win - check World of Tanks gold ammo. Provides a direct game advantage over those who don't buy it.



So does PLEX give a direct ingame advantage if you buy them from CCP and sell them for isk on the ingame market.


Or are you saying that a week old character in WoT can beat a year old character because the week old character is using gold ammo and the year old character is using silver ammo?