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Pay to win

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DrSmegma
Smegma United
#441 - 2012-07-18 09:43:42 UTC
I just don't think I'm in the position to enlighten you about the existence of a reality outside of this treadmill. I laughed because otherwise I'd have to cry about your misfortune.

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#442 - 2012-07-18 09:51:13 UTC  |  Edited by: dexington
Khanh'rhh wrote:
So, once again, what in game advantage can money buy me?


You can bypass all mechanics that has some high isk requirement attached, e.g. many trade and industry activities require large isk investments. It is also going to give you easy access to expensive ships and modules, which by most would be considered and advantage, but does somewhat depend on what kind of pvp you do.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#443 - 2012-07-18 09:56:30 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
I just don't think I'm in the position to enlighten you about the existence of a reality outside of this treadmill. I laughed because otherwise I'd have to cry about your misfortune.

You are exactly in the position to educate me, by telling me how you are able to buy an advantage that I cannot otherwise acquire in game.

Simply telling me you think I'm wrong and making up reasons why isn't demonstrating anything other than your inability to form a valid position.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#444 - 2012-07-18 09:59:42 UTC
dexington wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
So, once again, what in game advantage can money buy me?


You can bypass all mechanics that has some high isk requirement attached, e.g. many trade and industry activities require large isk investments. It is also going to give you easy access to expensive ships and modules, which by most would be considered and advantage, but does somewhat depend on what kind of pvp you do.

You do not bypass any mechanic at all, since it doesn't matter to the game WHERE you got the ISK from; all ISK is equal.

I could, for instance, stumble upon 74 plex in a wreck on a gate and start my trade empire that way. Or convince someone to give me the ISK, or steal the ISK, or do anything else to acquire it.

There's no special case that spending money to achieve this gives you, it simply bypasses the need to acquire it in game.

This is "advantageous" with respect to your real life (you do not need to spend the RL time) but this does not translate into an advantage in game that someone else can't also get.

This is exactly the point made on page 2 and people are still saying the same thing.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#445 - 2012-07-18 10:16:12 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
I could, for instance, stumble upon 74 plex in a wreck on a gate and start my trade empire that way. Or convince someone to give me the ISK, or steal the ISK, or do anything else to acquire it.


So the guy that find wrecks with 74 plex each day does not have an advantage over the guy never finds any?, don't really make a lot of sense...

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Signal11th
#446 - 2012-07-18 10:39:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
dexington wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
I could, for instance, stumble upon 74 plex in a wreck on a gate and start my trade empire that way. Or convince someone to give me the ISK, or steal the ISK, or do anything else to acquire it.


So the guy that find wrecks with 74 plex each day does not have an advantage over the guy never finds any?, don't really make a lot of sense...



The only advantage it gives him is time...Fortunately EVE is not some sort of Communistic (don't know if this is even a word) ideal,

If you're rich in real life or in EVE then yes you can shortcut the grind for isk and the grind for SP (alt market) but that's the 0.99 percent of people who play this game as it's the same in the real world. Tough DooDoo thats just the way life is.

They still isn't any P2W items in game, there's nothing I can't buy ingame with ISK so there isn't any P2W in EVE.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#447 - 2012-07-18 10:46:51 UTC
dexington wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
I could, for instance, stumble upon 74 plex in a wreck on a gate and start my trade empire that way. Or convince someone to give me the ISK, or steal the ISK, or do anything else to acquire it.


So the guy that find wrecks with 74 plex each day does not have an advantage over the guy never finds any?, don't really make a lot of sense...

With all else being equal, yes, he does. You're simply describing how having ISK is an advantage, and it still doesn't matter how you acquire it.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#448 - 2012-07-18 12:48:12 UTC
23 pages, and people still don't understand the distinct difference between "paying to get ahead" and P2W.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#449 - 2012-07-18 12:53:22 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
23 pages, and people still don't understand the distinct difference between "paying to get ahead" and P2W.


Yeep wrote:
This thread isn't about play to win at all, its one guy mad at offgrid boosting alts trying to rally people to his cause by trying to misrepresent it as something more serious.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#450 - 2012-07-18 14:56:20 UTC
EFT and Co.


Can you please answer these questions


What advantage does a player paying for 3 accounts gain against 3 players?

What advantage does a player buying a 16 mil SP alt gain over a 16mill SP player?

What adavntage does a player buying his ship with RL money gain over a player with the same ship?

How does the Rich guy "Win" if every time he undocks he loses his ship he bought with real money?

What stops the "rich guy" from being able to lose his ship, when undocking, to make the purchase "win"

How is paying RL money for Alt account "Win" but paying for Alt account with isk not?
Marcus Ichiro
IchiCorp
#451 - 2012-07-18 15:55:03 UTC
dexington wrote:
So the guy that find wrecks with 74 plex each day does not have an advantage over the guy never finds any?, don't really make a lot of sense...


The guy that finds a wreck with 74 plex in didn't pay to get that advantage. He played the game.
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#452 - 2012-07-18 15:57:02 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
Marcus Ichiro wrote:
dexington wrote:
So the guy that find wrecks with 74 plex each day does not have an advantage over the guy never finds any?, don't really make a lot of sense...

The guy that finds a wreck with 74 plex in didn't pay to get that advantage. He played the game.

The guy who buys 74 plex didn't play the game to get that advantage. He paid for it. Roll

malcovas Henderson wrote:

What advantage does a player buying a 16 mil SP alt gain over a 16mill SP player?

Didn't have to spend 2 years on training his char.

"But being 2 years faster than me is bla bla blaa Q.Q", yea yea.
Not gonna bother anymore. You people believe what you want to believe. If you just acknowledged the truth, it would just remind you of how little your ingame achievements matter.

So go make up your next fanboy defence based on nothing but wishful thinking and self-delusion.



EDIT: Maybe you'll see the truth when the last PLEX on the market has been bought up and it's empty. Then see how long you're going to keep playing equally with your ISK. Lol You're playing because people with ISK allow you to play in exchange for services. That's it. Without them you wouldn't even be able to post right now, if you're a PLEX-kid. Fact.

What a ridiculous topic. Sure, if your tunnel view is narrow enough then a bit of a cat looks just like a bit of a tiger. And a really narrow view on a rock can't be distinguished from a really narrow view on a mountain.

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#453 - 2012-07-18 16:06:40 UTC  |  Edited by: malcovas Henderson
DrSmegma wrote:


malcovas Henderson wrote:

What advantage does a player buying a 16 mil SP alt gain over a 16mill SP player?

Didn't have to spend 2 years on training his char.



Thats not an advantage. What has already passed is past. The here and now they are both same. You have gained no advantage. You could counter argue as well that the 2 yr player has an advantage of Experience over the purchased Alt.
Cameron Cahill
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#454 - 2012-07-18 16:12:31 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
Marcus Ichiro wrote:
dexington wrote:
So the guy that find wrecks with 74 plex each day does not have an advantage over the guy never finds any?, don't really make a lot of sense...

The guy that finds a wreck with 74 plex in didn't pay to get that advantage. He played the game.

The guy who buys 74 plex didn't play the game to get that advantage. He paid for it. Roll

malcovas Henderson wrote:

What advantage does a player buying a 16 mil SP alt gain over a 16mill SP player?

Didn't have to spend 2 years on training his char.

"But being 2 years faster than me is bla bla blaa Q.Q", yea yea.
Not gonna bother anymore. You people believe what you want to believe. If you just acknowledged the truth, it would just remind you of how little your ingame achievements matter.

So go make up your next fanboy defence based on nothing but wishful thinking and self-delusion.



EDIT: Maybe you'll see the truth when the last PLEX on the market has been bought up and it's empty. Then see how long you're going to keep playing equally with your ISK. Lol You're playing because people with ISK allow you to play in exchange for services. That's it. Without them you wouldn't even be able to post right now, if you're a PLEX-kid. Fact.

What a ridiculous topic. Sure, if your tunnel view is narrow enough then a bit of a cat looks just like a bit of a tiger. And a really narrow view on a rock can't be distinguished from a really narrow view on a mountain.


Dawwww did you get angry over loosing an argument and try and regain your pride by calling those who beat you stupid, shouting 'You'll see! You'll all see!!!!!' shaking you're fist and running off in a huff?
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#455 - 2012-07-18 16:14:23 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:


malcovas Henderson wrote:

What advantage does a player buying a 16 mil SP alt gain over a 16mill SP player?

Didn't have to spend 2 years on training his char.



Thats not an advantage. What has already passed is past. The here and now they are both same. You have gained no advantage. You could counter argue as well that the 2 yr player has an advantage of Experience over the purchased Alt.


Oh god...

Yea, you could counter like that if you blindly assume that the char-buyer doesn't have that experience. Maybe he does. Maybe he had 2 years of time on studying how to play with that char instead of grinding missions, mining, exploration, trade, whatever mind-numbing activity it is that the other guy has been doing in the meanwhile.

Eve Online: Where people will tell you that saving 2 years of your life isn't an advantage. Lol

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#456 - 2012-07-18 16:14:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyress
Ok the 16 mil sp character that someone bought doesn't have an advantage over another 16 mil sp character, but the week old player that bought a 16 mil sp character with RL money spent on plex does have an advantage over the week old player that didn't buy his character. It may not be PTW but its using out of games means to gain in game advantage. Call it what you will. I think of it as a cheat.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#457 - 2012-07-18 16:19:21 UTC  |  Edited by: malcovas Henderson
Zyress wrote:
Ok the 16 mil sp character that someone bought doesn't have an advantage over another 16 mil sp character, but the week old player that bought a 16 mil sp character with RL money spent on plex does have an advantage over the week old character that didn't buy his character. It may not be PTW but its using out of games means to gain in game advantage. Call it what you will. I think of it as a cheat.



there is nothing to stop the week old player from gaining in game isk and purchasing his own 16 mil sp alt
Cameron Cahill
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#458 - 2012-07-18 16:19:37 UTC
Pay to win means having an ingame advantage that can ONLY be acquired through out of game means i.e. gold ammo etc.

There is nothing in eve that can not be acquired with in game money, therefor there is no pay to win.

If you don't like that you can play the game for free, or that people can invest money in what is for many a hobby rather than a game then there is a simple solution. Don't use the PLEX system.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#459 - 2012-07-18 16:25:17 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Zyress wrote:
Ok the 16 mil sp character that someone bought doesn't have an advantage over another 16 mil sp character, but the week old player that bought a 16 mil sp character with RL money spent on plex does have an advantage over the week old character that didn't buy his character. It may not be PTW but its using out of games means to gain in game advantage. Call it what you will. I think of it as a cheat.



there is nothing to stop the week old player from gaining in game isk and purchasing his own 16 mil sp alt?


I'd be fine with that if the week old player that bought his 16 mil sp charcater had used ingame methods to get his plex but he didn't he used out of game methods, and thats a very savy player that at one week has figured out how to make the isk to buy a 16 mil sp character in game.
Cameron Cahill
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#460 - 2012-07-18 16:28:27 UTC
Zyress wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Zyress wrote:
Ok the 16 mil sp character that someone bought doesn't have an advantage over another 16 mil sp character, but the week old player that bought a 16 mil sp character with RL money spent on plex does have an advantage over the week old character that didn't buy his character. It may not be PTW but its using out of games means to gain in game advantage. Call it what you will. I think of it as a cheat.



there is nothing to stop the week old player from gaining in game isk and purchasing his own 16 mil sp alt?


I'd be fine with that if the week old player that bought his 16 mil sp charcater had used ingame methods to get his plex but he didn't he used out of game methods, and thats a very savy player that at one week has figured out how to make the isk to buy a 16 mil sp character in game.


Goon newbies do it every week, people are so keen to give their money away....