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Pay to win

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EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#301 - 2012-07-17 17:59:03 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
*snip*

Please try to remain on topic, thank you.


Edit: edited for being off topic - ISD Type40
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#302 - 2012-07-17 18:01:00 UTC
In Second Life, nonconsensual PVP is banned, is PVP griefing, or is it not griefing?

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#303 - 2012-07-17 18:02:03 UTC
My God, you know, I think I non-ironically love that you think that is a valid statement to make after all this.

You, sir, completely lack a logical brain.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#304 - 2012-07-17 18:05:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Gogela wrote:
classified data wrote:
How is the EVE community so against 'paying to win' gameplay and yet alts are fine Question

I once caught a guy with six alts in six haulers coming out of a wormhole. What a payday for me when I blew them up. If he hadn't had all those alts he couldn't have lost so much to me. When I use PLEX for my sub, someone else is paying for me to play... and that feels like a win. When I catch a dude with a bunch of alts in haulers, I thank him for paying for my win. When I get scam money, I again thank them for their efforts and contributions to my winning. When a noob fits a faction BS hero style, I thank him for the loot.

You can pay to play in eve, but that is very different than paying to win. You can't buy a win... a win requires good luck, clever pod skills, game knowledge, and other things that can only come from inside your skull.

You don't buy a systematic win because you pay for golden ammo, you know you still get head shot just like you don't buy win in eve but just afford better chances of wining, so what will you do about the golden ammo?

I'm not following you here. I don't think buying a more expensive ship necessarily gives you a better chance of winning. There's a lot of ways to counter more expensive ships. The other day me and a friend lost a bunch of ships to a cheap setup at a bubble camp. They jammed us out and we died despite having more people and better ships. A couple days later I came back and killed a T3 from that corp w/ a drake. In both instances the cheap stuff won. Ammo is ammo. You can buy faction ammo with money w/ a plex you sell... w/ isk you earn or steal in the game... or you can take it out of the wreck of your enemy. What's the difference & who cares? If you could buy ammo that was exclusively available through an out-of-game purchase that was superior than the ammo you acquire though in-game play, I'd say EvE was over... but that's not happening.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#305 - 2012-07-17 18:07:54 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
My God, you know, I think I non-ironically love that you think that is a valid statement to make after all this.

You, sir, completely lack a logical brain.

Just thought I'd point out you are arguing with a guy named "EpicFailTroll". Just sayin'

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Meizu Kho
Kho Incorporated
The Lone Space Wolves
#306 - 2012-07-17 18:10:36 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
in Derkastan, you can get a high post in the government, either through giving money to the president (corruption), or working your way up: what is the state of the regime? Is it corrupt? Is it not corrupt?


Since in Derkastan it is legal to ask for money as part of the recruitment process the regime is not corrupt. This law is accepted by the citizens of Derkastan since everyone can apply for the position and all the money is invested back in the Derkastan Economy with a slight tax on it to help the poor.

Derkastan is not pay to win.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#307 - 2012-07-17 18:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: EpicFailTroll
Tippia wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
But paying to fund your alts increases your chance to win, since you have more time to train.
…an advantage you could have without paying for it.


No, because then, you wouldn't have had time to train

Tippia wrote:
Quote:
Equal numbers (of equally skilled players) on each side.
…doesn't change the fact that the same advantage can be had without paying for it by having friends, better skils, and better equipment, no matter how much you wish to restrict one side's access to those advantages in this single scenario. Since payment doesn't provide any kind of advantage that can't be had without paying for it, there is no P2W.


Friends (added numbers one one side to offset the alts), do not compute with equal numbers. Can you even understand that?
Payment did provide advantage, since alts couldn't be had without paying RL money
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#308 - 2012-07-17 18:26:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
The same thing he always says, which, as always, doesn't actually address the point: if you strictly equate numbers with payment the way you have to do in order to make the claim that it's payment that generates the win, then you've stretched the meaning of P2W to the point of being completely meaningless. As luck would have it, numbers and payment are not the same thing. It's the numbers that win the fight, not the payment.


But you can get the numbers, in a faster, funnier, more efficient way through payment, and, in the past, it was the only way to get them in EvE, given a same number of players on each side.


Tippia wrote:
Quote:
Can you reliably control multiple characters in a FPS?
Yes. Just use multiple players. Since they have to pay more, and since paying more gives them an advantage, it's P2W, right?


Can a single person reliably control multiple characters in a FPS? It was evident, in the context, but you had to snip again, of course.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#309 - 2012-07-17 18:27:31 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
In Second Life, nonconsensual PVP is banned, is PVP griefing, or is it not griefing?


Is Second Life a PvP game at all?
Dan Carter Murray
#310 - 2012-07-17 18:29:01 UTC
Soto ShinDo wrote:
classified data wrote:
How is the EVE community so against 'paying to win' gameplay and yet alts are fine Question


You can't 'pay to win' in EVE. This is not WoW. Yes, you can buy a shitton of Plexes, sell them and get a titan char and a titan. Unfortunately you can't buy the ability to fit and fly it and you will still be able to lose all the spent money in an instant.

Same applies to ALTs - having them is pretty convenient (as in nearly every other MMO I ever played) but I can't see how they should be an 'I win'-button. Dual-boxing is hard, multi-boxing even harder.


hate to break it to you but you can't pay to win in wow

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#311 - 2012-07-17 18:29:36 UTC
Meizu Kho wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
in Derkastan, you can get a high post in the government, either through giving money to the president (corruption), or working your way up: what is the state of the regime? Is it corrupt? Is it not corrupt?


Since in Derkastan it is legal to ask for money as part of the recruitment process the regime is not corrupt. This law is accepted by the citizens of Derkastan since everyone can apply for the position and all the money is invested back in the Derkastan Economy with a slight tax on it to help the poor.

Derkastan is not pay to win.


Then, because it is widely accepted, Derkastan is not corrupt in its own eyes, I do agree.

What about the neighboring countries, in which you cannot buy your way up, and can only work for it? Would they consider Derkastan corrupt?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#312 - 2012-07-17 18:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
EpicFailTroll wrote:
No, because then, you wouldn't have had time to train
Sure you would. There's enough schemes around to make money with so little interaction as to make no difference.

Quote:
Friends (added numbers one one side to offset the alts), do not compute with equal numbers.
…and no matter how much you wish to restrict one side's access to those advantages in this single scenario, the fact remains that the same advantage can be had without paying for it. Since payment doesn't provide any kind of advantage that can't be had without paying for it, there is no P2W.

Quote:
But you can get the numbers, in a faster, funnier, more efficient way through payment
None of which makes it P2W.

Quote:
Can a single person reliably control multiple characters in a FPS?
Doesn't matter because that's not what the argument is about. It's about how equating numbers to payment means that any multiplayer game becomes P2W since a numerical payment difference between the teams provides an advantage. This, in turn, shows that the proposed equivalence is silly, and if we choose to be a bit more stringent about it all and separate the two, we quickly find that it is not the payment that creates any win, but the numbers. Thus, no P2W.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#313 - 2012-07-17 18:43:43 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:

But you can get the numbers, in a faster, funnier, more efficient way through payment, and, in the past, it was the only way to get them in EvE, given a same number of players on each side.


Two things:
- Your argument of P2W basically boils down to having alts being better than being solo. That's really an assault on multi-accounting, not an example of P2W.
- Eve is more fun when you aren't multiboxing. I've actually stopped dual, tripple, and quad accounting in PVP. In most fights beyond 2v1, a pair of high quality players is almost universally better than one player trying to dual account. Also, it lets you crank up the graphics quality for better fraps. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#314 - 2012-07-17 19:00:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sure you would. There's enough schemes around to make money with so little interaction as to make no difference.


And yet the person with more RL money to inject would have more time to train, i.e. would have the upper hand.


Tippia wrote:
Quote:
Friends (added numbers one one side to offset the alts), do not compute with equal numbers.
…and no matter how much you wish to restrict one side's access to those advantages in this single scenario, the fact remains that the same advantage can be had without paying for it. Since payment doesn't provide any kind of advantage that can't be had without paying for it, there is no P2W.


As the stubborness of facts has it, it was plainly stated "equal numbers of RL players on each side with equal skill", which is the basis of a level playfield in any game, competitive or not, btw.
RL money was at the time the only way to fund alts, which are, in this scenario, a clear way to get a great advantage. Was EvE P2W then?


Tippia wrote:
Quote:
But you can get the numbers, in a faster, funnier, more efficient way through payment
None of which makes it P2W.


Numbers give an advantage, and the more efficient way refers to time not spent grinding, see first point.
So yes very much P2W
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#315 - 2012-07-17 19:01:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
Can a single person reliably control multiple characters in a FPS?
Doesn't matter because that's not what the argument is about. It's about how equating numbers to payment means that any multiplayer game becomes P2W since a numerical payment difference between the teams provides an advantage. This, in turn, shows that the proposed equivalence is silly, and if we choose to be a bit more stringent about it all and separate the two, we quickly find that it is not the payment that creates any win, but the numbers. Thus, no P2W.


But it does matter. A numerical difference between the characters controlled by two teams composed of the same number of same skill players, is irrelevant in any twitch-based mmo or fps, since you can't reliably control more than once character per player.

However, in EvE, it is very much relevant, because of alts providing a great advantage, and requiring zero to little input in order for them to do their job properly.

Those alts can be funded much more efficiently through RL money -and in the past, it was the only way-, freeing time spent grinding for isk (which is the other means to fund them now), which can be spent getting better at winning. Therefore, P2W.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#316 - 2012-07-17 19:05:00 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Sure you would. There's enough schemes around to make money with so little interaction as to make no difference.


And yet the person with more RL money to inject would have more time to train, i.e. would have the upper hand.


Frequently the people that are alliance leaders and supercap pilots with many alts actually have no job and no money. If you're willing to sit around on your ass all day and play Eve, you'd be amazed how much ISK you can make.

Quote:

As the stubborness of facts has it, it was plainly stated "equal numbers of RL players on each side with equal skill", which is the basis of a level playfield in any game, competitive or not, btw.
RL money was at the time the only way to fund alts, which are, in this scenario, a clear way to get a great advantage. Was EvE P2W then?


No, and it isn't P2W now either.

Quote:

Numbers give an advantage, and the more efficient way refers to time not spent grinding, see first point.
So yes very much P2W


So stop grinding and start making your ISK in a half way intelligent manner.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#317 - 2012-07-17 19:07:11 UTC  |  Edited by: EpicFailTroll
Liang Nuren wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:

But you can get the numbers, in a faster, funnier, more efficient way through payment, and, in the past, it was the only way to get them in EvE, given a same number of players on each side.


Two things:
- Your argument of P2W basically boils down to having alts being better than being solo. That's really an assault on multi-accounting, not an example of P2W.
- Eve is more fun when you aren't multiboxing. I've actually stopped dual, tripple, and quad accounting in PVP. In most fights beyond 2v1, a pair of high quality players is almost universally better than one player trying to dual account. Also, it lets you crank up the graphics quality for better fraps. :)

-Liang



Absolutely. I've loathed multi-accounting for a long time and I think it's the bane of this game, since it allows for all kinds of vicious meta, escaping the consequences, and flying riskless.
It's also much more fun when you aren't, I agree again. But the sad truth is when you enjoy solo flying, you can be sure to encounter multiboxers at some point.

Amongst other things, it should also be noted that in any semi-serious corp, leadership is expected to have alts, because it's become an accepted fact that nobody really wants to haul or do mundane stuff... when there are quite a few players who would happily be space janitors, fuel pos and do crap like that -I know, I am one-.
In a way, alts have become mandatory for some parts of the game, and prevent a part of the single player population to be good at the trade they'd choose, if alts weren't already used for it because it's generally considered as uncool. I do have a real problem with that.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#318 - 2012-07-17 19:09:54 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:

But you can get the numbers, in a faster, funnier, more efficient way through payment, and, in the past, it was the only way to get them in EvE, given a same number of players on each side.


Two things:
- Your argument of P2W basically boils down to having alts being better than being solo. That's really an assault on multi-accounting, not an example of P2W.
- Eve is more fun when you aren't multiboxing. I've actually stopped dual, tripple, and quad accounting in PVP. In most fights beyond 2v1, a pair of high quality players is almost universally better than one player trying to dual account. Also, it lets you crank up the graphics quality for better fraps. :)

-Liang



Absolutely. I've loathed multi-accounting for a long time and I think it's the bane of this game, since it allows for all kinds of vicious meta, escaping the consequences, and flying riskless.
It's also much more fun when you aren't, I agree again. But the sad truth is when you enjoy solo flying, you can be sure to encounter multiboxers at some point.

Amongst other things, it should also be noted that in any semi-serious corp, leadership is expected to have alts, because it's become an accepted fact that nobody really wants to haul or do mundane stuff... when there are quite a few players who would happily be space janitors, fuel pos and do crap like that -I know, I am one-.
In a way, alts have become mandatory for some parts of the game, and prevent a part of the single player population to be good at the trade they'd choose, if alts weren't already used for it because it's generally considered as uncool. I do have a real problem with that.


So campaign for fixing the areas of the game that you think are alt-only territory. But saying that Eve is P2W because of multi accounting is just bullshit.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#319 - 2012-07-17 19:17:07 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


So campaign for fixing the areas of the game that you think are alt-only territory. But saying that Eve is P2W because of multi accounting is just bullshit.

-Liang


Why should CCP care? Alts bring in more revenue. Some areas will always be low maintenance, low input, so that a leadership will always prefer to use alts for them and not risk disruption.

A cynic could also argue that the gameplay has been revolving heavily around alt usage, and that the Power of Two offers are not philanthropic in nature
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#320 - 2012-07-17 19:31:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Xorv
Khanh'rhh wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
So, as facts would have it, it's P2W, since, just like gold ammo, it increases your chances to win

Except, gold ammo can only be acquired by paying money for it, and in EvE everything can be acquired for ISK as well.

So, again, what advantage are you able to purchase in EvE for real money (that you cannot pay ISK for) which increases the chance you will win?


So, essentially what you're saying is that CCP can put gold ammo in the NEX store, and so long as there's an option for players that buy it that allows them to sell the gold ammo for ISK in game it would not be 'pay to win'. Correct?