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Pay to win

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Doomheim
#1 - 2012-07-15 09:12:22 UTC
How is the EVE community so against 'paying to win' gameplay and yet alts are fine Question
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-07-15 09:13:52 UTC
classified data wrote:
How is the EVE community so against 'paying to win' gameplay and yet alts are fine Question



we are already paying for this game

R.S.I2014
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-07-15 09:15:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Degren
The proper question would have been "but are ok with plex"

The answer is unknown.

Probably because paying for subs without rl money is super convenient.

(as for alts, theres no realistic way to stop someone from having them)

Hello, hello again.
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#4 - 2012-07-15 09:18:45 UTC
Everybody can have alts, not everybody can afford or is willing to spend $300.- on "gold" ammo.
Dasola
New Edens Freeports
#5 - 2012-07-15 09:31:24 UTC
Im against pay to win. Why?

To me it would take away unique gameplay eve offers for me. In this game where paths you choose are not scripted, its truly up to yourself to make you what you want to be.

Want to be elite PVP player? Go learn it. Pay to win would take this learning away. Anyone can learn ingame skill, But to be great, you must learn so much more then just those. Gamemechanics, application of right things at right time...

Lets not forget this is subscription based game, so i shell out real life money to buy gametime code, or large pile of iskies to get plex from market. Either way, your paying your sub monthly.

Eve is unique in ways it allows playing it. Its many things... World largest realtime economy simulation, practise ground for future leaders (Yes i believe some of those skills are traferrable to real life).

To me what got me sub this game in 2008, was no hand holding attitude of game itself. No easy shortcuts to be great. Yes i did try wow, it was IMHO too easy. As introvert personality person, eve is what truly speaks and challenges me...

We are Minmatar, Our ship are made of scraps, but look what our scraps can do...
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-07-15 09:32:49 UTC
Dasola wrote:
Im against pay to win. Why?

To me it would take away unique gameplay eve offers for me. In this game where paths you choose are not scripted, its truly up to yourself to make you what you want to be.

Want to be elite PVP player? Go learn it. Pay to win would take this learning away. Anyone can learn ingame skill, But to be great, you must learn so much more then just those. Gamemechanics, application of right things at right time...

Lets not forget this is subscription based game, so i shell out real life money to buy gametime code, or large pile of iskies to get plex from market. Either way, your paying your sub monthly.

Eve is unique in ways it allows playing it. Its many things... World largest realtime economy simulation, practise ground for future leaders (Yes i believe some of those skills are traferrable to real life).

To me what got me sub this game in 2008, was no hand holding attitude of game itself. No easy shortcuts to be great. Yes i did try wow, it was IMHO too easy. As introvert personality person, eve is what truly speaks and challenges me...


psst: the op was more asking why people are ok with alts.

Hello, hello again.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-07-15 09:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Everybody can have alts, not everybody can afford or is willing to spend $300.- on "gold" ammo.



The border line is crossed the moment you can buy in game currency with real money, doesn't matter if it's 5 bucks or 1000.
Now let me turn this in to your own words and tell you for sure not everybody can afford to buy plex for in game currency, but can use in game currency to buy plex and pay with it for gaming time.

The way it's done is a little proper than RMT sites since it's CCP who makes the transaction but is still pay to win, we can play as much as we like with words and use as much arguments as each one likes to support his own vision, but plex on it self is somewhat already pay to win.

What players don't like is the idea that real currency can buy items you couldn't have any other way in game just by playing, and it's a fair statement, however it's well known only a few can afford to buy unique ships giving tremendous advantages over every one else and this doesn't bother any one (in game currency having a real money value, therefore they pay for an advantage most can't afford to and it's exactly pay for the win, like it or not)

On topic:
-when you pay real money to buy some Command or T3 boosting alt, you're paying for the win.
-when you pay real money to buy some logistics or ECM alt you are paying for the win

These are just two examples how to use/abuse words to get a clear advantage with real money over majority of players you'll cross. So yes, pay to win already exists, those using it just don't like to talk about or will ever admit because it's not in their own interest this gets changed.

brb
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#8 - 2012-07-15 09:36:47 UTC
Um because we all have ISK and can buy anything we want with it, getting the ISK via plex or ingame methods makes no difference.


If there was gold ammo only available for RL cash that would break that balance.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-07-15 09:41:03 UTC
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
Um because we all have ISK and can buy anything we want with it, getting the ISK via plex or ingame methods makes no difference.


If there was gold ammo only available for RL cash that would break that balance.



I'm ok with that, now what do you think if I just get my credit card out of my pocket and get enough plex/convert it in to isk to buy that new Cloacky Basilisk, am I paying for the win or not?

brb
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-07-15 09:48:40 UTC
Alts don't alter the gameplay in any way. From a gameplay perspective they're just a bad substitute for other players. Meaning they don't do anything a character controlled by another person couldn't do. In fact they're often worse, since managing them reduces their performance. You either have to micromanage several accounts, which means all perform below normal or you have them all copy one set of instructions, which means they perform their task efficiently, but in a very limited manner compared to a group of actual players. This makes them worse overall compared to actual players. Gameplay wise they are still governed by the same rules and have no advantages compared to other characters.

What they do offer is convenience and allow you to focus on wider range of activities at the same time. This is an advantage to the actual player behind the characters, but it doesn't offer advantages as far as characters in the game are concerned. They're still standing on equal footing, their gameplay functions are still governed by the same rules and no amount of RL monies can be used to bend those rules.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-07-15 09:58:10 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Alts don't alter the gameplay in any way. From a gameplay perspective they're just a bad substitute for other players. Meaning they don't do anything a character controlled by another person couldn't do. In fact they're often worse, since managing them reduces their performance. You either have to micromanage several accounts, which means all perform below normal or you have them all copy one set of instructions, which means they perform their task efficiently, but in a very limited manner compared to a group of actual players. This makes them worse overall compared to actual players. Gameplay wise they are still governed by the same rules and have no advantages compared to other characters.

What they do offer is convenience and allow you to focus on wider range of activities at the same time. This is an advantage to the actual player behind the characters, but it doesn't offer advantages as far as characters in the game are concerned. They're still standing on equal footing, their gameplay functions are still governed by the same rules and no amount of RL monies can be used to bend those rules.



So if a sit an alt at the pos full gang links I don't have to take care about it doesn't alter my game play at all?

My pvp Tengu thanks to this gets a 4k max speed 30km web 50km disruptor, higher shield amount/resists but no, it doesn't alter at all the game play.

Of course.

brb
Beatrice Ushiromiya
Boars on Parade
The Tuskers Co.
#12 - 2012-07-15 10:04:32 UTC
Quote:
-when you pay real money to buy some Command or T3 boosting alt, you're paying for the win.
-when you pay real money to buy some logistics or ECM alt you are paying for the win

If you can't afford an alt, find a friend who can pilot a Falcon. One hardly can 'win' EVE by paying real money, there is always a bigger fish. People pay to make the game more comfortable, you can't blame them for it.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-07-15 10:13:39 UTC
Beatrice Ushiromiya wrote:
Quote:
-when you pay real money to buy some Command or T3 boosting alt, you're paying for the win.
-when you pay real money to buy some logistics or ECM alt you are paying for the win

If you can't afford an alt, find a friend who can pilot a Falcon. One hardly can 'win' EVE by paying real money, there is always a bigger fish. People pay to make the game more comfortable, you can't blame them for it.



I don't, I also have alts because this makes my "main" gaming easier or comfortable like you say, and I do it because I can. Doesn't mean I shouldn't admit this gives me a clear advantage at some point over those not having one or at least not having skilled alts like I or someone else can afford to.

Does an unskilled alt for scouting brings advantages? - a little one over someone not having
Does the fact of using high skilled alts like Command/T3/Blops or capital etc bring you clear advantages over a huge part of those players you cross? -of course it does

brb
Rudgier Thorrin
Noob Constructions LTD
#14 - 2012-07-15 10:24:42 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Alts don't alter the gameplay in any way. From a gameplay perspective they're just a bad substitute for other players. Meaning they don't do anything a character controlled by another person couldn't do. In fact they're often worse, since managing them reduces their performance. You either have to micromanage several accounts, which means all perform below normal or you have them all copy one set of instructions, which means they perform their task efficiently, but in a very limited manner compared to a group of actual players. This makes them worse overall compared to actual players. Gameplay wise they are still governed by the same rules and have no advantages compared to other characters.

What they do offer is convenience and allow you to focus on wider range of activities at the same time. This is an advantage to the actual player behind the characters, but it doesn't offer advantages as far as characters in the game are concerned. They're still standing on equal footing, their gameplay functions are still governed by the same rules and no amount of RL monies can be used to bend those rules.



So if a sit an alt at the pos full gang links I don't have to take care about it doesn't alter my game play at all?

My pvp Tengu thanks to this gets a 4k max speed 30km web 50km disruptor, higher shield amount/resists but no, it doesn't alter at all the game play.

Of course.

The boosting character did not come out of the void with skills and equipment, someone had to invest time and money to train and equip him. I see no difference between having that someone sit AFK at your pos and you buying him on the character bazaar and basically doing the same thing.
Except that if you want to change system you'll have to divide your attention, even if for a short while.

Implying I need a signature
WonkySplitDemon
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-07-15 10:27:07 UTC
Xinivrae
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-07-15 10:27:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Xinivrae
Lin I understand the points your trying to make, for the most part, I agree.

However

One of the major draws to eve, in my opinion, is the possibility that if you make enough isk, you can play the game for free by buying plex. But the plex has to come from somewhere, and it's not coming from some npc service, it's coming from someone who paid for it with actual money. Likewise, when someone buys plex, there's no galactic bank of eve to cash in your plex for isk, you need an actual willing player to buy it off of you, and the fact that people continue to buy plex hints that people for the most part have no problems with this exchange, or at the very least think it's somewhat fair. It is players after all that determine how much plex is worth.

Now yes, there are people who blow hundreds of dollars buying tons of plex, selling it and go roll around in a pool of monocles in their officer fit nightmare, but there's also the person who's too lazy to grind the missions for the isk to buy the hac he just got the skills to pilot, or the people who are just bad at managing or making isk in general. But in the end, their paying to give someone else a free ride on their dollar. No isk is being generated, just circulated, while very real wallets are emptying.

And for those that are rolling around in monocles in their officer fit ships, the fact of the matter is that while you can essentially "buy" ships and modules, something that you cannot "buy" is capability, or ̶s̶k̶i̶l̶l̶p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶s̶ (I'm a moron). A group of players, or even a single one, can still blow your trillion dollar butt out of the sky in ships that cost a small fraction of your own.

I'm sorry I dragged this out, I'm not the greatest at organizing my thoughts. I just wanted to say that, while yes, you are kinda right, there's another side to things, and people buying plex has the potential to benefit more than just the person who paid for it.

Edit: Whoops, completely forgot that you can "buy" skillpoints by buying a character.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#17 - 2012-07-15 10:28:24 UTC
I fail to see the correlation between having alts and paying to win.....

Can I have some of what your smoking? It will help.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
WonkySplitDemon
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-07-15 10:29:52 UTC
Pay to win, 'till you die, 'till the light dies in your eyes
Pay to win, take it all, just keep fighting till you fall
Miss Aqua
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-07-15 10:42:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss Aqua
There are 2 variations of pay to win and players often start arguing over them because not everyone uses the same definition.

  • One is quite simple anything that gives an advantage regardless of actual (better cash items) or time (exp boosts plex for isk) is considered pay to win.

  • The 2nd one only includes items that give an actual advantage (better ammo, weapons, tank, ships, etc.)during gameplay over those who don't pay.

You may also find that people mix parts of these sometimes ex. skillpoints because of how the skillsystem in eve works.
It depends on the individual view of the player, thats why many people are ok with plex.

For alts if used in pve they are just another form of saving time, however if used in pvp at the same time with other accounts they do indeed give an unfair actual advantage over players who can't afford them. But this rarely happens so people are not concerned and easily overlook this issue for the usefulness of alts. One might also argue that alts are not better items and therefore it's still ok with the 2nd pay to win def. I gave here. It's certainly a borderline case and a legit question imho.

I personally am one of those who accepts alts for their usefulness and I prefer the 2nd def. of pay to win.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#20 - 2012-07-15 10:51:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Having a bunch of alts is like a mini-blob... hmm
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Alts don't alter the gameplay in any way. From a gameplay perspective they're just a bad substitute for other players. Meaning they don't do anything a character controlled by another person couldn't do. In fact they're often worse, since managing them reduces their performance. You either have to micromanage several accounts, which means all perform below normal or you have them all copy one set of instructions, which means they perform their task efficiently, but in a very limited manner compared to a group of actual players. This makes them worse overall compared to actual players. Gameplay wise they are still governed by the same rules and have no advantages compared to other characters.

What they do offer is convenience and allow you to focus on wider range of activities at the same time. This is an advantage to the actual player behind the characters, but it doesn't offer advantages as far as characters in the game are concerned. They're still standing on equal footing, their gameplay functions are still governed by the same rules and no amount of RL monies can be used to bend those rules.

Remember the CFC apparently has "bot fleets"... which shoot structures and even coordinate by shooting a primary target Shocked

Sadly, the bit of code governing jump/do not jump is a bit broken. So is the part that should prevent the ship from bumping the titan Cool

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
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