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Mission Running with an Abaddon
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Dare Knight
Bandwagoners
#1 - 2012-07-13 15:37:44 UTC
***Amarr Ship Noob Alert***

So I've been flying an Abaddon for a little bit now and, despite the overwhelming success I've had in lvl3 missions and blitzing them, I've consistently had issues with lvl4 missions, mostly in terms of capacitor.

Now, I've known from the beginning that the Abaddon is a very cap-heavy ship. I've been using cap boosters but tend to run out of them mid-mission, especially in missions like Blockade, which I already know to be very difficult if not the most difficult lvl4 missions to solo.

My question concerns my experience with other ships in comparison to the Baddon. I use to be able to run Blockade with a Drake. While it's like comparing apples to oranges, I fell under the impression that the Abaddon, being a battleship, would at least perform on par with the Drake, a Battlecruiser. My support skills for tanking and energy weapons are all at 4. I can't seem to identify where my problem may be, other than being a noob with piloting Amarr ships.

What I've identified so far is that with the Drake my capacitor is used almost exclusively for tanking, where with the Abaddon my capacitor is used mostly for DPS. This forced me to consider and use a passive tank. This does mean that, while I can tank like a haus, eventually I need to dock up, equip some reppers, and rep my armor. This is offset with the Drake's ability to dock up and have fully repped shields upon undock if needed, which never really was needed.

I wish I could post my fitting, but as I'm at work, I obviously can't. I'll tell you that I'm running a full rack of meta 4 beams, my mids have two tracking computers and a sensor booster with tracking scripts and range scripts, and my lows are full of resists, a DCU, two 1600mm plates, and a heatsink. Rigs are two powergrid rigs so I can fit everything and a damage mod. I use light and medium drones to handle frigates/cruisers respectively.

Landing the shot is almost never a problem unless they're 15km or closer. Damage usually lands in at about 1.5k per hit using Gamma and about 900 using Radio for long range.

My maneuverability is crap, as is expected for a Battleship. I realize that missiles, as long as they hit, almost always produce 100% damage.

What other factors may be contributing to my inability to properly complete lvl4's in a timely manner that I can rectify, and in what ways can I rectify this? I'm really enjoying Amarr ships, but as this is PvE I can accept that they're not built with a bias in that direction. I'd like to keep with the Amarr ships if possible, but am open to the possibility that I may need to stick with Caldari ships for PvE if necessary.

Any thoughts?

_It's very simple, really. If you see Tengus on scan, they are ratting. If you see a shitload of Tengus, the Russians are blobbing. If you see Proteuses on scan, they will be on top of you in about a second. If you see a shitload of Proteuses, the big boys are having a goodfight. _
Vain Eldritch
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2012-07-13 15:53:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Vain Eldritch
How are your cap skills? AWU? Gunnery laser cap skill (controlled bursts?)...

There are cap stable abaddon fits that run level 4's with no problems - perhaps not optimally in terms of time - but certainly without cap issues (with very good skills in cap you can run a stable abaddon without booster - I hate boosters :p)... providing you have good/great/perfect cap skills.

Androgynous Caldari Cross-dresser
Dare Knight
Bandwagoners
#3 - 2012-07-13 15:56:39 UTC
Vain Eldritch wrote:
How are your cap skills? AWU? Gunnery laser cap skill (controlled bursts?)...

There are cap stable abaddon fits that run level 4's with no problems - perhaps not optimally in terms of time - but certainly without cap issues... providing you have good/great/perfect cap skills.


My cap skills are, if I recall, at 3's and 4's, so they could use some help admittedly. I've tried with Pyfa to develop a cap stable Abby fit, even with all lvl5's for skills enabled. Any chance you can shed some light on this? I'll be the first to admit that I'm not 100% up to speed and could always benefit from anyone else's experience.

_It's very simple, really. If you see Tengus on scan, they are ratting. If you see a shitload of Tengus, the Russians are blobbing. If you see Proteuses on scan, they will be on top of you in about a second. If you see a shitload of Proteuses, the big boys are having a goodfight. _
Vain Eldritch
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2012-07-13 16:06:27 UTC
Dare Knight wrote:
Vain Eldritch wrote:
How are your cap skills? AWU? Gunnery laser cap skill (controlled bursts?)...

There are cap stable abaddon fits that run level 4's with no problems - perhaps not optimally in terms of time - but certainly without cap issues... providing you have good/great/perfect cap skills.


My cap skills are, if I recall, at 3's and 4's, so they could use some help admittedly. I've tried with Pyfa to develop a cap stable Abby fit, even with all lvl5's for skills enabled. Any chance you can shed some light on this? I'll be the first to admit that I'm not 100% up to speed and could always benefit from anyone else's experience.


I'm at work, I'm sure someone will oblige soon... but unit then from the little information provided I'd hazzard you have limited funds and low skills. The abaddon is a fine ship,but of all the T1 battleships it is in my opinion the one that most needs REALLY good cap skills.

Let me try and remember: you'll need 4x cap recharger II, 3 x Capacitor control circuit I (T2 rigs are astomonically expensive so don't go there). You could a´dd a Capacitor Power Relay II as a low slot as these reallyboost your cap.

Not much, I know but as I said I am working...

:p

Androgynous Caldari Cross-dresser
Dare Knight
Bandwagoners
#5 - 2012-07-13 16:15:19 UTC
Hey hey, no problem :) I am, too. I appreciate you taking the time to address this with me.

I'm sitting at a measely 5m SP (I regret trashing my old Dare Knight char with 18m SP all of a sudden), so yeah, my skills, while more focused than what they were, aren't as high as they should be. I've dumped a lot into turret skills and tanking, and just this past week decided to jump into a Battleship. My Core Comp is at Basic, and admittedly I need to dump more SP into cap skills if I'm going to keep flying... well, at all.

I've noted that the other Amarr ships have bonuses to cap use with the turrets, which the Abaddon doesn't. I mostly chose the Abaddon because it's a bad on(e). I'll have to pop up EVEMon tonight at home and adjust for more cap skills more immediately.

I didn't really consider loading up on cap-based mods mostly because I felt that I needed tracking and targetting range to make use of those beams more properly. I'll fit up with cap mods and see how that goes.

I have looked on Battleclinic and a lot of the loadouts are very similar to mine. What has me by my tongue is that in Pyfa I wasn't able to build similar fits even at lvl5 skills that were cap stable. Is it safe to assume that those fits are mostly for people with logi support to boost their caps?

Thanks again for the time you're taking to discuss this with me. One of the best ways to get through a problem is to openly discuss it. That makes you think of things you haven't thought of yet, and obviously brings about better advice from people who do what I'm trying to do :)




Vain Eldritch wrote:
Dare Knight wrote:
Vain Eldritch wrote:
How are your cap skills? AWU? Gunnery laser cap skill (controlled bursts?)...

There are cap stable abaddon fits that run level 4's with no problems - perhaps not optimally in terms of time - but certainly without cap issues... providing you have good/great/perfect cap skills.


My cap skills are, if I recall, at 3's and 4's, so they could use some help admittedly. I've tried with Pyfa to develop a cap stable Abby fit, even with all lvl5's for skills enabled. Any chance you can shed some light on this? I'll be the first to admit that I'm not 100% up to speed and could always benefit from anyone else's experience.


I'm at work, I'm sure someone will oblige soon... but unit then from the little information provided I'd hazzard you have limited funds and low skills. The abaddon is a fine ship,but of all the T1 battleships it is in my opinion the one that most needs REALLY good cap skills.

Let me try and remember: you'll need 4x cap recharger II, 3 x Capacitor control circuit I (T2 rigs are astomonically expensive so don't go there). You could a´dd a Capacitor Power Relay II as a low slot as these reallyboost your cap.

Not much, I know but as I said I am working...

:p

_It's very simple, really. If you see Tengus on scan, they are ratting. If you see a shitload of Tengus, the Russians are blobbing. If you see Proteuses on scan, they will be on top of you in about a second. If you see a shitload of Proteuses, the big boys are having a goodfight. _
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#6 - 2012-07-13 16:17:57 UTC
if you're having cap issues, i believe the other amarr battleships are preferable for missions.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-07-13 16:38:57 UTC
Dare Knight wrote:

I wish I could post my fitting, but as I'm at work, I obviously can't. I'll tell you that I'm running a full rack of meta 4 beams, my mids have two tracking computers and a sensor booster with tracking scripts and range scripts, and my lows are full of resists, a DCU, two 1600mm plates, and a heatsink. Rigs are two powergrid rigs so I can fit everything and a damage mod. I use light and medium drones to handle frigates/cruisers respectively.


what are the plates supposed to do? do you really fly missions with a buffer tank? i'm also at work so i cannot slap together a fit but here is a good starting point. you do not have a cap booster but with your skills, you should manage.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Ginger Barbarella
#8 - 2012-07-13 16:48:43 UTC
Ran some L4's (Abaddon with high meta guns, not T2) and I was left stripping the ship for parts and going back to my SNI.

Lazors are great fun in L1 - L3... just doesn't work for me in L4's...

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#9 - 2012-07-13 16:53:40 UTC
Some general things:

1) Where are you missioning/who are you running against? Laser ships don't do well against Guristas or Angels.

2) Abaddons are not going to be cap stable; throw that notion out. What they can be is stable enough. You shouldn't need to run the repper permanently and you can always shut off your guns for awhile if your cap needs to recover.
CorInaXeraL
The Dresdeneers
#10 - 2012-07-13 16:57:33 UTC
I used to run an Abby, and getting it cap-stable required some serious skills to boost my cap. But I was able to fit a full rack of MPL2's with either Scorch or Conflag, active tank with a single armor rep, and get through any mission that came my way from a Lv4 agent.

H
8*MPL2

M
I played around here, usually with
2*Cap Rechargers
1* Tracking Computer (Range or Tracking per need)
1* Sensor Booster

Lows depended on the mission and ability to tank

3* heat sinks
2 EANM or specific to mission-damage
1 Specific or DCU or EANM
1 LAR.

Rigs were all CCC's.


If I needed to I could swap a heat sink for a Cap Power Relay to help with stability, or if tank was not an issue swap out a hardener for a Cap Power Relay. Likewise if I didn't need the Booster or Computer, those could drop for a third Cap Recharger.

Kept it a fair bit flexible for whatever was needed.
Dare Knight
Bandwagoners
#11 - 2012-07-13 17:51:25 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Dare Knight wrote:

I wish I could post my fitting, but as I'm at work, I obviously can't. I'll tell you that I'm running a full rack of meta 4 beams, my mids have two tracking computers and a sensor booster with tracking scripts and range scripts, and my lows are full of resists, a DCU, two 1600mm plates, and a heatsink. Rigs are two powergrid rigs so I can fit everything and a damage mod. I use light and medium drones to handle frigates/cruisers respectively.


what are the plates supposed to do? do you really fly missions with a buffer tank? i'm also at work so i cannot slap together a fit but here is a good starting point. you do not have a cap booster but with your skills, you should manage.


I do run a cap booster with 800's. I'd fit a bigger booster but I'm lacking either PG/CPU.

_It's very simple, really. If you see Tengus on scan, they are ratting. If you see a shitload of Tengus, the Russians are blobbing. If you see Proteuses on scan, they will be on top of you in about a second. If you see a shitload of Proteuses, the big boys are having a goodfight. _
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-07-13 23:28:48 UTC
Dare Knight wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Dare Knight wrote:

I wish I could post my fitting, but as I'm at work, I obviously can't. I'll tell you that I'm running a full rack of meta 4 beams, my mids have two tracking computers and a sensor booster with tracking scripts and range scripts, and my lows are full of resists, a DCU, two 1600mm plates, and a heatsink. Rigs are two powergrid rigs so I can fit everything and a damage mod. I use light and medium drones to handle frigates/cruisers respectively.


what are the plates supposed to do? do you really fly missions with a buffer tank? i'm also at work so i cannot slap together a fit but here is a good starting point. you do not have a cap booster but with your skills, you should manage.


I do run a cap booster with 800's. I'd fit a bigger booster but I'm lacking either PG/CPU.

again, drop the plate. it does not do anything and has quite high powergrid demands. then go from there.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Crash Lander
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-07-14 03:38:47 UTC
Amarr pilot here, I used an Abaddon as my first L4 mission ship and ran with it for a very long time with very similar issues. After a few month I eventually switched to a Navy Apoc and realized what a mistake I'd made with the Abaddon and how much time I'd wasted.
I still have that Abaddon, and despite my hardest attempts to make the Abbadon work I can still get a lot more utility out of an Apoc or a Navy Apoc. So it got refitted for PvP, what it was made for in the first place.

So unless you use a cap injector on the Abaddon (which I personally don't like though others might disagree) you WILL run into cap issues with the Abaddon.

My first recommendation: switch to a NAPoc. This ship properly fitted is on par and sometimes even better than a Nightmare in terms of overall performance.
My second recommendation: switch to an Apoc
My third recommendation: use a cap injector

Abaddon is just not a good PvE ship. My 2 cents.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#14 - 2012-07-14 04:25:27 UTC
Abaddon is fine, people just need to get over this aversion to cap boosters.
Dare Knight
Bandwagoners
#15 - 2012-07-14 05:18:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Dare Knight
Paikis wrote:
Abaddon is fine, people just need to get over this aversion to cap boosters.


Oh no, no aversion :P I couldn't fly without one in my Amarr PvE setups, namely for flying in Gallente space where in missions I seem to perpetually run into neuts all over the place. I love me some cap boosters.

As far as the Apoc, I'm going to give that a try and see how it goes. Eventually if it works well I'll switch over to the NApoc, all this while continuing to train my cap skills a little farther for sure.

EDIT: Tomorrow after work I'll try out the Baddon without the plates. Are you suggesting going with reppers instead of the plates? What's the full circle thought on that?

_It's very simple, really. If you see Tengus on scan, they are ratting. If you see a shitload of Tengus, the Russians are blobbing. If you see Proteuses on scan, they will be on top of you in about a second. If you see a shitload of Proteuses, the big boys are having a goodfight. _
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#16 - 2012-07-14 10:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Crash Lander wrote:
AMy first recommendation: switch to a NAPoc. This ship properly fitted is on par and sometimes even better than a Nightmare in terms of overall performance.


Before I jump in and flat out tell you you're wrong, I'd like to ask in what way you think a Navy Apoc is better than a nightmare?

Dare Knight wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Abaddon is fine, people just need to get over this aversion to cap boosters.


Oh no, no aversion :P I couldn't fly without one in my Amarr PvE setups, namely for flying in Gallente space where in missions I seem to perpetually run into neuts all over the place. I love me some cap boosters.

As far as the Apoc, I'm going to give that a try and see how it goes. Eventually if it works well I'll switch over to the NApoc, all this while continuing to train my cap skills a little farther for sure.

EDIT: Tomorrow after work I'll try out the Baddon without the plates. Are you suggesting going with reppers instead of the plates? What's the full circle thought on that?


The booster aversion was a general statement about observed tendencies among mission runners. I cringe every time I see a cap-stable CNR that can run the shield booster all the time. It almost hurts.

Anyway, you *CAN* get a cap stable Abaddon. But... you need to use all your mid slots, all your rig slots and one of your low slots on cap recharging stuff, and you can't use close range ammo. This means your DPS suffers, your tank suffers and missions will take forever to finish.

[Abaddon, Sanshas Missions]
Large Armor Repairer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Tracking Enhancer II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

This setup (with all Vs) will tank about the same as a CNR, and do more damage at shorter range... and it's not a navy ship. The trade off? The CNR will last twice as long (cap wise) with everything running. As long as you have cap boosters though you should be OK, and you can fit 2-3 refills in your cargo.

Having said that... a Navy Apoc will do slightly less damage, at longer range, tank the same and wont have cap issues. But it is a navy ship, I would expect it to be better. if I had to chose, I'd probably use the Navy Apocalypse. But I run a Nightmare, so it's not an issue for me :D

EDIT: Also, re: Armor Plates. Armor plates are used for buffer tanking. This is a tanking style used for PvP, where you maximize your Effective Hit Points (EHP), because when the blob targets you (or even just 2-3 other players) you're going to melt so fast that any kind of active tanking is most likely going to be useless. Buffer tanking is not used in PvE, because you need sustained tank over long periods. Having 4 times as many hit points is great, but eventually the rats will eat through it and then you pop. Having a small amount of sustained (or large bursts) repair ability will mean you are still alive at the end, because your repairers will have added many more hit points than a plate... they just took a long time to do it.

Resists to reduce incoming damage, repairers to fix the damage. Leave buffer tanks to PvP where they belong.
Scien Inkunen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-07-14 14:45:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Scien Inkunen
Get the energy management skills to 5 first.
And hull also to 5.

Read the "Fart file" and you will understand the meaning of life !
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#18 - 2012-07-14 16:20:52 UTC
I battled to get an abo to work for me, I switched to a apoc which has slightly less dps but worked better. Use a NM now and is hands down the best BS for em/therm weak rats. Using lasers is always going to require cap injection.
Dare Knight
Bandwagoners
#19 - 2012-07-14 20:59:54 UTC
Quote:
Armor Plates. Armor plates are used for buffer tanking. This is a tanking style used for PvP, where you maximize your Effective Hit Points (EHP), because when the blob targets you (or even just 2-3 other players) you're going to melt so fast that any kind of active tanking is most likely going to be useless. Buffer tanking is not used in PvE, because you need sustained tank over long periods. Having 4 times as many hit points is great, but eventually the rats will eat through it and then you pop. Having a small amount of sustained (or large bursts) repair ability will mean you are still alive at the end, because your repairers will have added many more hit points than a plate... they just took a long time to do it.

Resists to reduce incoming damage, repairers to fix the damage. Leave buffer tanks to PvP where they belong.



Thank you for this -- It's this kind of input that puts things into perspective for me in terms of tanking mechanics. Knowing this I can move forward with reppers and resist mods.

I've got my cap skills queued up and will be working for the next stretch of time to get them all to IV/V -- This is obviously a must before I go any further with any other skills if I plan to continue to fly Amarr. I'm going to look into the NM, but I think the wise choice is being able to fly correctly before flying a bigger/better ship :)

_It's very simple, really. If you see Tengus on scan, they are ratting. If you see a shitload of Tengus, the Russians are blobbing. If you see Proteuses on scan, they will be on top of you in about a second. If you see a shitload of Proteuses, the big boys are having a goodfight. _
CanDor Kalel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-07-16 20:38:35 UTC
Dare Knight wrote:
***Amarr Ship Noob Alert***

So I've been flying an Abaddon for a little bit now and, despite the overwhelming success I've had in lvl3 missions and blitzing them, I've consistently had issues with lvl4 missions, mostly in terms of capacitor.

Now, I've known from the beginning that the Abaddon is a very cap-heavy ship. I've been using cap boosters but tend to run out of them mid-mission, especially in missions like Blockade, which I already know to be very difficult if not the most difficult lvl4 missions to solo.

My question concerns my experience with other ships in comparison to the Baddon. I use to be able to run Blockade with a Drake. While it's like comparing apples to oranges, I fell under the impression that the Abaddon, being a battleship, would at least perform on par with the Drake, a Battlecruiser. My support skills for tanking and energy weapons are all at 4. I can't seem to identify where my problem may be, other than being a noob with piloting Amarr ships.

What I've identified so far is that with the Drake my capacitor is used almost exclusively for tanking, where with the Abaddon my capacitor is used mostly for DPS. This forced me to consider and use a passive tank. This does mean that, while I can tank like a haus, eventually I need to dock up, equip some reppers, and rep my armor. This is offset with the Drake's ability to dock up and have fully repped shields upon undock if needed, which never really was needed.

I wish I could post my fitting, but as I'm at work, I obviously can't. I'll tell you that I'm running a full rack of meta 4 beams, my mids have two tracking computers and a sensor booster with tracking scripts and range scripts, and my lows are full of resists, a DCU, two 1600mm plates, and a heatsink. Rigs are two powergrid rigs so I can fit everything and a damage mod. I use light and medium drones to handle frigates/cruisers respectively.
Wel get all cap skills to 4 and you should be fine
Landing the shot is almost never a problem unless they're 15km or closer. Damage usually lands in at about 1.5k per hit using Gamma and about 900 using Radio for long range.

My maneuverability is crap, as is expected for a Battleship. I realize that missiles, as long as they hit, almost always produce 100% damage.

What other factors may be contributing to my inability to properly complete lvl4's in a timely manner that I can rectify, and in what ways can I rectify this? I'm really enjoying Amarr ships, but as this is PvE I can accept that they're not built with a bias in that direction. I'd like to keep with the Amarr ships if possible, but am open to the possibility that I may need to stick with Caldari ships for PvE if necessary.

Any thoughts?
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