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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Official Recantation of Previous Opposition to Nation
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Ikarus Gaul
S I G M A
#61 - 2011-09-27 09:48:50 UTC
Actually, you have the etymology and meanings of "utopia" and "eutopia" reversed, Monsieur Wedgetail. Please see the following encyclopaedic reference on Galnet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia.

But as the etymological roots of the two words are not the core issue that you wish to raise, and only serve as illustrative devices, let us put that matter aside for the moment.

Wedgetail wrote:

... 'good place' of which the universe has many - none of which were constructed by madmen...


That is merely a matter of opinion. Greatness has often been mistaken for madness, until its full flowering.

Wedgetail wrote:

...we burned his little falsehood to the ground the first time...


And you expect the same outcome again. Despite that rather different conditions of the day. We differ in our estimations and projections. Only time will tell.

Wedgetail wrote:

Even if Kuvakei should manage to find a new white shiny throne to call his paradise - there will be none among you fit to inhabit it - something your deliberately limited minds are no longer capable of seeing.


It matters not if I survive to actually see the Master's great enterprise through... however much I would like to witness it with my own eyes, and hope that it is possible. It only matters that it does in fact happen. Should I need to sacrifice my life for this, I will, gladly.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#62 - 2011-09-27 11:31:31 UTC
Ikarus Gaul wrote:
Wedgetail wrote:
...we burned his little falsehood to the ground the first time...
And you expect the same outcome again. Despite that rather different conditions of the day. We differ in our estimations and projections. Only time will tell.
Your words in various deities' ears. Sadly, it seems to me as if a lot of people wish to tell on IGS that surely THEY will win, and do not leave that to time alone.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#63 - 2011-09-27 20:18:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Arkady Sadik wrote:

Quote:
your personnal vendettas against Amarr and your expectable hypocritical agendas.
My personal vendetta? I said it before, and I can repeat it again: I couldn't care less about the Amarr. If you Amarr would stick to yourselves and leave us alone, I'd be more than happy to return the favor. As it is, this is not the case. The Amarr keep my people in captivity and organizations like PIE Inc. and the Knighthood of the Merciful Crown work hard towards "reclaiming" the rest of us. And when I call you out on that, it is me having a personal "vendetta"?

You must be kidding.

It is good to see that you started to put your actions where before there were only words. You have my respect for this. I wish more people would follow your example.


No, I am not kidding. I am fed up to see people mixing personnal actions AND words WITH the actions of the entities they are part of.

You are not learning : you are still adressing me by "you Amarr" when I actually am no part of Amarr. You are not reading either : yes, the Knighthood reclaim Minmatar systems even more than PIE Inc does (have you even seen PIE Inc in military complexes the past years ? They did it barely for one year and moved on). And yes, both hide behind the flag to help pirates and privateers on the warzone. Does that mean that everyone being a part of them condone this ? Does that mean that everyone of their members actually support this ? Same, if someone is a Caldari citizen, does that mean that he/she supports provists actions or the reconquista of Caldari Prime ? If someone is a Gallente citizen, does that mean he or she supports the blackeagles ? Or back in the past, if someone was a citizen of the Republic, does that means he or she supported Midular's policies ?

Your tendancy to put every political party of an entitty in the same basket continues to baffle me.

Someday I saw some kind of Caldari caricature on an holofeed. It was portraying two [caldari] people discussing :

"Nice to meet you. Are you caldari ?"
"Yes indeed."
"So you are for the war on Caldari Prime ?"
"Uh... not really."
"So you are not caldari."
"But yes, I am caldari !"
"So you are for the war !"

Ad nauseam.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#64 - 2011-09-27 23:01:50 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
No, I am not kidding. I am fed up to see people mixing personnal actions AND words WITH the actions of the entities they are part of.
I think this is the crux of our disagreement.

If you are voluntarily part of an organization, you at least in part condone their actions. You can not voluntarily be part of a corporation and completely distance yourself from their actions - your actions are theirs, and their actions are yours.

Equating membership in a capsuleer corporation (an entirely voluntary and easily changed affair) with citizenship in a nation (which is difficult to get rid of or change, if you can at all) is not helpful, by the way. Equating it with racial association (something you do not choose at all) even less so.

And yes, if someone voluntarily joins the Caldari State military after the State declared war on the Federation, I will ask her why she supports the war, and I feel rather justified asking that question.

Quote:
you are still adressing me by "you Amarr" when I actually am no part of Amarr.
This, on the other hand, is entirely a fault of my own. Apologies, I will try to remember this.
Jerec Khaliff
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2011-09-28 01:31:58 UTC
Well hell...

"While there is a chance of the world getting through its troubles, I hold that a reasonable man has to behave as though he were sure of it. If, at the end, your cheerfulness is not justified... at any rate you will have been cheerful." - H.G. Wells
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#66 - 2011-09-28 11:01:47 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
I think this is the crux of our disagreement.

If you are voluntarily part of an organization, you at least in part condone their actions. You can not voluntarily be part of a corporation and completely distance yourself from their actions - your actions are theirs, and their actions are yours.


Yes indeed, this is the crux of the disagreement.

And no, my actions of course reflect on the corporate image, thus even if the corporation is not condoning or supporting them, they at least silently support them by doing nothing when they disagree.

Their actions at the contrary, are not mine. This is just a logical fallacy you are doing here. How can they be mine when I am not even part of them, or doing them ? This is a logical nonsense, and I perfectly know from what it comes from. But stating "My corporation did something so I was part of it" is just ludicrous in a pure form of logic.


Arkady Sadik wrote:
Equating membership in a capsuleer corporation (an entirely voluntary and easily changed affair) with citizenship in a nation (which is difficult to get rid of or change, if you can at all) is not helpful, by the way. Equating it with racial association (something you do not choose at all) even less so.

And yes, if someone voluntarily joins the Caldari State military after the State declared war on the Federation, I will ask her why she supports the war, and I feel rather justified asking that question.


Yes, it does not equate it, though my analogy is still valid. You can perfectly join any entity because you share the majority of what they stand for (well, it was my case at the beginning, at least), and work to change the things you do not agree with. This is why most organization have councils to discuss their policies.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#67 - 2011-09-28 12:06:22 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
You can perfectly join any entity because you share the majority of what they stand for (well, it was my case at the beginning, at least), and work to change the things you do not agree with.
Yes. But by joining, you at least tolerate the other actions. And if you support a corporation with your actions, you do support all of what they do, whether you want it or not.

I do believe in shared responsibility. If the group you voluntarily are part of commits an action, you at least tolerate that action, and if you are neutral in a situation of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.

But I think it's best if we agree to disagree at this point, though. I doubt either of us will convince the other. At least I have tried to explain my position as well as I can, and as it feels "absolutely obvious" to me and you still disagree, I suspect we have some very basic differences there that will be difficult to bridge in a public discussion.
Dilaro thagriin
Doomheim
#68 - 2011-09-28 12:50:21 UTC
I think what Mr Sadik here is trying to say, in it's simplest terms is this:

'The only thing required for evil and injustice to succeed, is that good men and women do nothing.'
Carcosa Hali
Perkone
Caldari State
#69 - 2011-09-28 21:00:56 UTC
Welcome to Nation, Pilot Gaul. It it always wonderful to see another person open themselves to Truth and aspire toward Citizenry.

May your lasers burn brightly in His name.
Cmdr Baxter
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#70 - 2011-09-28 21:11:35 UTC
Carcosa Hali wrote:
Welcome to Nation, Pilot Gaul. It it always wonderful to see another person open themselves to Truth and aspire toward Citizenry.

I find it doubtful that Pilot Gaul, a recognized and self-acknowledged turncoat, will be so readily turned into a True Citizen. More likely he's destined to become a True Slave, the lowest of the low in the Nation hierarchy, lacking in self-awareness and used only as cannon fodder on the battlefield.

Commander S. "Old Man" Baxter, CN (ret.)

Chief Archivist, The Synenose Accord
Ikarus Gaul
S I G M A
#71 - 2011-09-28 21:13:36 UTC
UPDATE:

  • I have tallied total payments, fees, and benefits that I received from CONCORD while on my previous, erroneous path. The ISK difference between that figure and the amount previously donated has been remitted to Master Kuvakei. I have therefore totally divested myself of these ill-gotten profits. That amount was approximately 30% of my net worth.
  • I have been working for True Power, which is now sixth on the list of corporations that favour me. My standing with True Power is now superior to my standing with CONCORD. The CONCORD Assembly is not pleased at all... I anticipate that soon I would not be able to travel in their space, had I any desire to go there.
  • My standings with Nation itself have improved somewhat, although as expected this is a longer and more arduous process.


Oh, and thank you for the warm welcome, Pilot Hali.
Ikarus Gaul
S I G M A
#72 - 2011-09-28 21:18:52 UTC
Cmdr Baxter wrote:

I find it doubtful that Pilot Gaul, a recognized and self-acknowledged turncoat, will be so readily turned into a True Citizen. More likely he's destined to become a True Slave, the lowest of the low in the Nation hierarchy, lacking in self-awareness and used only as cannon fodder on the battlefield.


It matters not how I am integrated into Nation, as long as I contribute to its ascension. Unlike you, I would not make any foolishly hasty judgments as to the form that such integration and contribution may take. Given the possibilities available with cloning and infomorph technologies, perhaps it will be both simultaneously.
Cmdr Baxter
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#73 - 2011-09-28 21:46:58 UTC
Ikarus Gaul wrote:
It matters not how I am integrated into Nation, as long as I contribute to its ascension. Unlike you, I would not make any foolishly hasty judgments as to the form that such integration and contribution may take.

I have a year's worth of scientific notes, official reports, and intelligence briefings, to guide my judgments and conclusions. Would you like to try that insult again?

Commander S. "Old Man" Baxter, CN (ret.)

Chief Archivist, The Synenose Accord
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#74 - 2011-09-28 22:07:18 UTC
Cmdr Baxter wrote:
I have a year's worth of scientific notes, official reports, and intelligence briefings, to guide my judgments and conclusions. Would you like to try that insult again?
I think the underlying problem here is that Mr. Gaul has been disappointed by the people of the cluster - disappointed beyond belief. I do not know what exactly happened, but it seems to me the most logical explanation: He is unhappy, he has tried everything normal society has to offer, and he has not found happiness yet. In such a situation, it's not too confusing to grasp to the last straws to find that elusive happiness.

Scientific notes, official reports, and intelligence briefings do not really matter to a desperate man.
Ikarus Gaul
S I G M A
#75 - 2011-09-28 23:00:38 UTC
Cmdr Baxter wrote:
Ikarus Gaul wrote:
It matters not how I am integrated into Nation, as long as I contribute to its ascension. Unlike you, I would not make any foolishly hasty judgments as to the form that such integration and contribution may take.

I have a year's worth of scientific notes, official reports, and intelligence briefings, to guide my judgments and conclusions. Would you like to try that insult again?


Monsieur Baxter, you seem rather testy and irritable today. I have strived very much not to make postings that make this matter "personal", as it were.

I was merely pointing out that I do not think anyone outside of Nation could really say what my final disposition might be. Despite your copious probes and studies in regards to Nation I doubt very much that they extend to this area, and are more likely related to Nations offensive capabilities, research activities, and other "macro" issues rather than minutiae such as this.
Gottii
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2011-09-28 23:22:35 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Cmdr Baxter wrote:
I have a year's worth of scientific notes, official reports, and intelligence briefings, to guide my judgments and conclusions. Would you like to try that insult again?
I think the underlying problem here is that Mr. Gaul has been disappointed by the people of the cluster - disappointed beyond belief. I do not know what exactly happened, but it seems to me the most logical explanation: He is unhappy, he has tried everything normal society has to offer, and he has not found happiness yet. In such a situation, it's not too confusing to grasp to the last straws to find that elusive happiness.

Scientific notes, official reports, and intelligence briefings do not really matter to a desperate man.


This.

As it applies to capsuleers, to me Nation seems little different than a personality cult backed with cutting edge will-suppression technology. And like every other cult, it preys upon the vulnerable and the unhappy, those with a weak sense of identity, in need of a quick fix for their perceived problems.
Myxx
The Scope
#77 - 2011-09-29 02:13:16 UTC
Honestly I don't get why people are feeding this guy. I gave up on trying to convince Nationals of just about anything other than that they'd look good with a bullet in their skull. Whats done is done.

That said, I've got a friend who works for Carthum Conglomerate, I'm kinda hoping they sell us some of their newest designs in handguns. Some of those designs are pretty sweet.
Ikarus Gaul
S I G M A
#78 - 2011-09-29 02:33:52 UTC
Transcript, from a few days ago:
[ 2011.09.24 00:23:55 ] Myxx > You have a moment?
[ 2011.09.24 00:24:19 ] Myxx > Hello, Braune
[ 2011.09.24 00:24:24 ] Ikarus Gaul > by all means
[ 2011.09.24 00:25:00 ] Braune > Greetings
[ 2011.09.24 00:25:07 ] Ikarus Gaul > Hello Braune. We have not met before...
[ 2011.09.24 00:25:16 ] Myxx > I had a discussion with Ghost Hunter in private about a year and a half ago.
[ 2011.09.24 00:25:30 ] Myxx > When I left his company, which lasted about an hour, I made a promise to him
[ 2011.09.24 00:25:43 ] Myxx > That promise was to shoot him dead if i ever saw him in the flesh again
[ 2011.09.24 00:26:05 ] Ikarus Gaul > I see
[ 2011.09.24 00:26:47 ] Braune > Then it is simple
[ 2011.09.24 00:26:49 ] Myxx > I used to respect you, Ikarus
[ 2011.09.24 00:27:06 ] Braune > him dead, keep your promise
[ 2011.09.24 00:27:11 ] Braune > shoot*
[ 2011.09.24 00:27:28 ] Myxx > I will, I just havent seen him in the flesh yet
[ 2011.09.24 00:27:35 ] Myxx > But Ikarus...
[ 2011.09.24 00:27:51 ] Ikarus Gaul > Myxx, I have a respect for you. But I also disagree with you. That simple.
[ 2011.09.24 00:29:14 ] Braune > I wish to know..
[ 2011.09.24 00:29:15 ] Myxx > there seems to have been an error in my corporate interface.
[ 2011.09.24 00:29:17 ] Myxx > Anyway...
[ 2011.09.24 00:29:24 ] Myxx > Braune... End this man.
[ 2011.09.24 00:29:29 ] Ikarus Gaul > So yes, you've seen me in the flesh somewhere, you'll shoot me dead. I'll resurrect in a new body again.
[ 2011.09.24 00:29:56 ] Braune > Is there a purpose, or a reason for me to care of this .."respect" thath this being has or had for you
[ 2011.09.24 00:30:11 ] Myxx > None whatsoever
[ 2011.09.24 00:30:18 ] Ikarus Gaul > Probably not, monsieur Braune
[ 2011.09.24 00:30:24 ] Myxx > He threw it away
[ 2011.09.24 00:30:47 ] Braune > Then perhaps it would be prudent to simply ...stop speaking?
[ 2011.09.24 00:30:59 ] Ikarus Gaul > agreed. farewell.

Myxx wrote:
Honestly I don't get why people are feeding this guy. I gave up on trying to convince Nationals of just about anything other than that they'd look good with a bullet in their skull. Whats done is done.

That said, I've got a friend who works for Carthum Conglomerate, I'm kinda hoping they sell us some of their newest designs in handguns. Some of those designs are pretty sweet.


I'm still waiting. But your "assassin" seems to have never practiced the craft before, and based on his movements seems to be more comfortable with research and/or industry... good luck with that.
Myxx
The Scope
#79 - 2011-09-29 02:37:14 UTC
Like I said, you'd look good with a bullet in your skull. As for Braune... well... theres a lot more to him than anything I could ever put into words.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#80 - 2011-09-29 15:27:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Dilaro thagriin wrote:
I think what Mr Sadik here is trying to say, in it's simplest terms is this:

'The only thing required for evil and injustice to succeed, is that good men and women do nothing.'


Yes indeed, instead of trying to work to change something, he would rather prefer to do nothing instead of joining a group with similar ideals, but with little differences.

I think, by the way, Mr Sadik, that you have grave delusions on the basic human conditions : everyone is different. If you look continuously for the exact mirror of yourself (which is a part of narcissism, by the way), you might experience difficulties to find a lot of people to work with, and eventually, you will end up in a regressive state of ideology with everybody agreeing on everything.

Oh, of course, I could have done like you : turning my weapons or my ideals against the few little disagreements here and there (which were basically about Scriptures or philosophical concepts, not even external ideological stances or RoEs). Very usefull indeed, instead of trying to change minds, I would have started to kill capsuleers in space. Very useful and meaningful, really.

Now then, I understand your point and there are limits to everything. This is also why I left in the first place : RoEs, realpolitik, and despicable allies. It was acceptable before for the simple reason that these problems were either nonexistent, or neglectible.


Edit : if you wish to continue this discussion, I think it would be better to open a new topic here concerning the militia's morality in general, and their partisans.