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The biggest issue with T3 Cruisers...
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Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-07-11 11:44:53 UTC
I've named it "It is not a Tengu-syndrome".

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#2 - 2012-07-11 11:47:42 UTC
Oh look, it's another 'Tengu is OP' thread. How quaint.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-07-11 11:49:21 UTC
Or is it the others who are underpowered?

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
ACE McFACE
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#4 - 2012-07-11 11:51:51 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Or is it the others who are underpowered?

They're all good in thier own way, its just the Tengu is great in its own way and is good enough to use in the other T3s place.

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-07-11 11:57:31 UTC
ACE McFACE wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Or is it the others who are underpowered?

They're all good in thier own way, its just the Tengu is great in its own way and is good enough to use in the other T3s place.


In other words: what I just said...?

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-07-11 13:10:30 UTC
You wanna see the Tengu be just as crappy as the other T3's? Take the missile subsystem off it and fit the Magnetic Infusion Basin, that's the hybrid turret sub if you don't know and had to look up the name of it like I just did using evemon.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-07-11 13:28:12 UTC
Klymer wrote:
You wanna see the Tengu be just as crappy as the other T3's? Take the missile subsystem off it and fit the Magnetic Infusion Basin, that's the hybrid turret sub if you don't know and had to look up the name of it like I just did using evemon.



Considering their cost/training time I'd rather see them brought up on the Tengu's level.

But each to his own I suppose.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Tikera Tissant
#8 - 2012-07-11 13:31:39 UTC
The T3s are mostly fine. Each has its own positive and negative aspects.
There are some tweaks needed to be done, but the tengu is not "omg tengu lets run to mommy!" kind of ship.

People are using the tengu because its easier to shoot missiles long range than going up close and personal against your opponent and blow his brains out with blasters, or going to range to really melt his face or put another bullet in his engine. That doesn't mean its the best and most efficient way to go.
I would definitely go "oh dear god I'm ******" if I see a proteus un-cloak 5000m away from me, than a tengu appearing at 50K away.

Learn to utilize the ship's strengths.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-07-11 13:50:28 UTC
For PvP perhaps.

When you ask for fittings for PvE though, the universal answer you get is "Grab a Tengu instead".

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Ron Maudieu
#10 - 2012-07-11 14:02:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ron Maudieu
Well, it has already been stated that CCP does not like how the T3s are in comparision to the other cruisers.

Example: A tengu is better than a cerberus in every way except cost.

That's not even to mention how they make command ships obsolete.
Denuo Secus
#11 - 2012-07-11 14:05:21 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
For PvP perhaps.

When you ask for fittings for PvE though, the universal answer you get is "Grab a Tengu instead".


Balancing around PvE isn't a good argument. Btw...I hear the Legion is quite usefull in certain PvE situations. Incursions and in WHs as far as I know.
Tikera Tissant
#12 - 2012-07-11 14:24:27 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
For PvP perhaps.

When you ask for fittings for PvE though, the universal answer you get is "Grab a Tengu instead".


That doesn't mean the tengu is faster. Its just easier. And against anyone else beside guristas, the tengu really falls short dps wise.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#13 - 2012-07-11 16:26:52 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
For PvP perhaps.

When you ask for fittings for PvE though, the universal answer you get is "Grab a Tengu instead".


For high sec exploration I'd personally take a Loki over a Tengu but it's a somewhat close call. For low sec it really depends; usually Tengu or Proteus (which has seriously come in to its own with DDAs). For roaming in null you can definitely do better than a Tengu depending on which region you're in.

Legion and Loki for incursions.

Tengu for wormhole spider tanks, but Loki for C5/6 capital escalation support. Solo in wormholes seems to go whichever way you want.

But if you're talking about missions -- yeah, grab a Tengu. Or train a proper mission ship if you don't want to blitz for LP.

(Fake edit: I've never used a Tengu in missions. Nor do I plan to. Why bother when I have both a Machariel and a Nightmare that already barely see any use anymore.)
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#14 - 2012-07-11 16:49:47 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
For PvP perhaps.

When you ask for fittings for PvE though, the universal answer you get is "Grab a Tengu instead".


Balancing around PvE isn't a good argument. Btw...I hear the Legion is quite usefull in certain PvE situations. Incursions and in WHs as far as I know.



Legion is fun, but its unfortunately 'not as' good as the other T'3's. Its dps is out done by Zealot, and Sacrilege tanks similarly. Its advantage is that it is able to do both (tank and dps), which is nice. The most common fix ive seen recommended is to add another turret slot to it, and I think I agree, it would be a dramatic improvement. Its other modules (and in general all the T3's 'other' modules in general) need some love.

I do not want a nerf for the Tengu. I would however like to see the other T3's put on par with it as an all around. Especially for the price, and penalties (if you lose the ship) involved.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#15 - 2012-07-11 16:59:58 UTC
Tikera Tissant wrote:

That doesn't mean the tengu is faster.


It is.
It's just that damage and damage projection with HMLs is too good when compared to other T3's.
When you can easily get ~720dps up to 100km without tracking issues while drone Proteus gets ~800 ( ogres + void ) then we have a problem ( as far as pve is concerned ). If you put a lot of effort in Proteus you can get quite close to Tengu in terms of effectiveness. The problem is that Tengu requires NO effort while being extremely effective.

Tikera Tissant wrote:

Its just easier


But that is actually the problem here. Fundamentally, the ship is simply very good. It's the ease of use that makes it OP in many people eyes.

Tikera Tissant wrote:

And against anyone else beside guristas, serpentis, gallente, caldari and wormholes , the tengu really falls short dps wise.


fixed that for youBlink
all those factions ( except whs of course ) share the same lowest resistance - kinetic
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#16 - 2012-07-11 17:17:29 UTC
Klymer wrote:
You wanna see the Tengu be just as crappy as the other T3's? Take the missile subsystem off it and fit the Magnetic Infusion Basin, that's the hybrid turret sub if you don't know and had to look up the name of it like I just did using evemon.



Hey, I've had a lot of fun flying a Tengu like that in Lv3s. Maybe it wasn't very profitable, but shooting things with guns for a few days was more entertaining than counting missile volleys.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-07-11 17:20:16 UTC
Exploited Engineer wrote:
Klymer wrote:
You wanna see the Tengu be just as crappy as the other T3's? Take the missile subsystem off it and fit the Magnetic Infusion Basin, that's the hybrid turret sub if you don't know and had to look up the name of it like I just did using evemon.



Hey, I've had a lot of fun flying a Tengu like that in Lv3s. Maybe it wasn't very profitable, but shooting things with guns for a few days was more entertaining than counting missile volleys.


That's exactly it! Projectile Turrets, especially Auto-Cannons, are ever so much fun. Which is why I dream of the day I can run a Loki through Lv4's like I can a Tengu...

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-07-11 17:26:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Or is it the others who are underpowered?


Tengu is great because "missiles" point blank. Heavy missiles are probably the most versatile weapon/ammo, sure not all caldari ships or those being able to use them have Tengu bonuses but let's take a close look.

You need a hella pimped fit that brings your Tengu price for about and most often above 3 billion isk. It's capital ships price !!
This is the price you have to pay to get the best out of your Tengu but at this point the dps you do with has really nothing impressive, a 6 launcher Pimped Tengu is spitting 700dps with T2 ammo, yep not a thing so impressive as people rabble about.

Where things start getting annoying is the fact those heavy missiles have a huge flight time (around 12 sec) then you add Tengu speed bonus + dmg and you can apply dmg from "there" with a ship cruiser signature, excellent speed (700 with 10MN AB and not booster whatsoever), good agility and and incredible tank thanks to a quite good resist profile.

Now, can you do 700dps with a Legion? -of course you can, put 3 billion in your fit and you can spit those with not much of a problem.

Can you spit 700dps with Proteus? -hell with 3 billion isk you can make it spit 1400 !! -isn't this OP? -no because you're in optimal witch means you just committed your balls to the fight, Tengu doesn't need that, he spits less dps but from "there"

Loki, again 3 billion isk on it and you get 700dps with no problem !

So why does Tengu make so many cry babies ask momie for candies? -because it has the ability to engage and disengage almost at wish, witch all other T3's don't.
So ho the hell do you think cries for Tengu nerfs, people who pvp with or mission with? -no, probably 100% of those are just those self proclaimed high sec elite pvp fan (gankers and rubish can bait ninjas etc) just good to kill retrievers and haulers heading to jita.


Edit: should I add a pimped fitted Loki can perma run MWD and DED Large shield booster? -this one with double faction web is the Tengu nightmare, believe me I lost a few against this Loki set up and still can't manage to win a fight against because they're dam good.

brb
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-07-11 17:28:46 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Klymer wrote:
You wanna see the Tengu be just as crappy as the other T3's? Take the missile subsystem off it and fit the Magnetic Infusion Basin, that's the hybrid turret sub if you don't know and had to look up the name of it like I just did using evemon.



Considering their cost/training time I'd rather see them brought up on the Tengu's level.

But each to his own I suppose.


This is exactly the fücking I'm asking for, and believe me I fly already with 3 T3's and can't separate my self of none because they're all incredible at their best role, thing is because missiles, Tengu is a little bit more versatile but at a high isk cost.

Yes, bring all others to Tengu level, this is the only good thing to do, except Command subs should simply not exist for T3's.

brb
Bommel McMurdoc
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-07-11 19:06:13 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
I've named it "It is not a Tengu-syndrome".


I've been surfing the ships and modules forum for a while, one thing I've noticed, it seems you certainly have a lot to say about modules and other aspects regarding EvE online. Is there anything you are satisfied with? Please, I ask that you don't misinterpret my intentions, but are you sure you like playing EvE online?

Fly safe.=)
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