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Fair Fights????
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#41 - 2012-07-10 20:55:09 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
All's fair in love and war.


Yes, but in love being out numbered is not necessarily a bad thing.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#42 - 2012-07-10 21:03:01 UTC
I think you mistake people's desire for fun and exciting fights with some sort of crying over unfair fights. Everyone knows fair fights are not to be expected, it's just awesome when you get a fun, pulse pounding, mouse-hand shaking battle. As opposed to desperately trying to get a lock before the rest of the blob kills the target.

No good deed goes unpunished
Luba Cibre
Global Song Setup
#43 - 2012-07-10 21:06:34 UTC
Fck fair fights, i'll drop 250 drakes on your 10 man gatecamp every time I can.

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#44 - 2012-07-10 21:08:10 UTC
I've been in fair fights. They were with Corpies and we were just playing around with fittings.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-07-10 21:15:29 UTC
Rene Fullchest wrote:
I have, for so long, heard the whinging about "fair fights" that I thought I'd bring the topic to GD.

Whether you are a veteran of nullsec campaigns or a casual hisec miner, you know the refrain, some variation of "ZOMG, they came with three times our numbers, why they don't 'fight fair'?"

I've never gotten this. Yes, this is a game, but the simulation is of war, not some sports event with rules and equal numbers on teams. The simulation is of invasion and crushing one's enemy, of winners and losers, of the thrill of success and the humiliation of defeat.

I say crying about fair fights is the lament of losers. What say you?


It's a different mentality, that's all.

Some of us consider EVE a game. Yes, I know, heresy. But anyhow, the point of a game is a challenge. Having 10 people attack 1 target presents no challenge, and it is also not what I would call sportsmanlike behavior. It's like hunting wolves from a chopper with a machinegun, any moron can do it.

Other people view it from the "all is fair in love and war" perspective, which from RP standpoint makes perfect sense in EVE.

There's no right or wrong answer. EVE is a sandbox, and both viewpoints are perfectly valid. Trouble is, EVE really encourages the second viewpoint, and really punishes the first. Which, and this is just my personal opinion, is what ended up costing this game a lot of subs.

Some games allow some form of fairness build into an engagement. Many MMOs have 2v2, 5v5, 15v15, etc. Gear is also largely the same, and it's mostly player skill the determines the winner. In EVE, the situation is completely reversed. As in, 15v5 is more common than not, gear (ships, mods, etc.) vary wildly, and SP is significantly more important than player skill (which is easily proved by a simple duel between a vet using a 100 SP char and a noob using a 100 mil SP char).

In other words, the fights in EVE are for the most part incredibly one-sided. Which is why so many people complain that fights are hard to get, because most people run at the first sign of balance shifting against them. Whereas in other MMOs, some people engage against huge odds and sometimes pull off epic victories that are more memorable.

Bottom line, unfairness is basically built into EVE by design. And sadly I feel it is more than a little responsible for EVE remaining a small niche game and never really making it into big time. No point trying to change it, just learn to live with it or more on to another MMO where the engagements are slightly more balanced. There's quite a few of those on the market.
Pipa Porto
#46 - 2012-07-10 21:22:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

Some games allow some form of fairness build into an engagement. Many MMOs have 2v2, 5v5, 15v15, etc. Gear is also largely the same, and it's mostly player skill the determines the winner. In EVE, the situation is completely reversed. As in, 15v5 is more common than not, gear (ships, mods, etc.) vary wildly, and SP is significantly more important than player skill (which is easily proved by a simple duel between a vet using a 100 SP char and a noob using a 100 mil SP char).


1) There are groups that regularly engage and honor arranged fair fights. They don't generally hold space, because it's not a winning strategy against those who don't play fair, but they do it for fun, and they enjoy it.

2) There are groups that regularly take fights against forces that are vastly numerically superior and tear them apart.

3) SP is important up to a point. 100m SP guy isn't going to be better at flying a frig than focused 10m SP guy, and might not even beat 3m SP guy, depending on Player skills.

4) 100SP guy can't actually fly any ship other than a Pod (A newbie ship takes 250SP for Spaceship Command 1, and 500SP for Racial Frig 1, for 750SP total).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Varell Jast
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#47 - 2012-07-10 22:41:57 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
There's no right or wrong answer. EVE is a sandbox, and both viewpoints are perfectly valid. Trouble is, EVE really encourages the second viewpoint, and really punishes the first.


Eve does not encourage or punish any of these viewpoints... as a matter of fact, these viewpoints wouldn't even exist if people realized that the PvP in this game does not start when you get on your ship, it starts and is fought with the political maneuvering that got you into that fleet to begin with.

If you're on the receiving end of a fleet spanking, you lost that fight when you decided to fly with that particular corp/alliance.







I think.
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-07-10 22:51:10 UTC
At OP:

It is dumb to whine about unfair fights. While fair fights are usually more fun, most people just want to win obviously. You very rarely hear people whining about the fights when their side is being "unfair".

I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
Russell Casey
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-07-11 00:05:51 UTC
People whine about fair fights only when they lose. Otherwise they'll say L2P, nub.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#50 - 2012-07-11 00:33:12 UTC
Maxpie wrote:
I think you mistake people's desire for fun and exciting fights with some sort of crying over unfair fights. Everyone knows fair fights are not to be expected, it's just awesome when you get a fun, pulse pounding, mouse-hand shaking battle. As opposed to desperately trying to get a lock before the rest of the blob kills the target.

Better yet, seeing my shields go down as I get primaried because I jammed someone's scimitar. :ohdear:

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Grumpymunky
Monkey Steals The Peach
#51 - 2012-07-11 03:33:56 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
drdxie wrote:
gorilla warfare


Smashing suitcases, were you?
I have some experience with this kind of fighting. It actually involves lobbing explosive bananas over rooftops at your opponents.

Post with your monkey.

Thread locked due to lack of pants.
Pipa Porto
#52 - 2012-07-11 03:54:23 UTC
Grumpymunky wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
drdxie wrote:
gorilla warfare


Smashing suitcases, were you?
I have some experience with this kind of fighting. It actually involves lobbing explosive bananas over rooftops at your opponents.


Moltov Compost?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#53 - 2012-07-11 08:22:51 UTC
drdxie wrote:
SoCo continues to engage larger numbers

"If you bring more ships than me, I will dock up" - Malaku, SOCO FC
Quote:
Sometimes we win..

Can you point to an example of when you successfully prevented the capture of a strategic objective?
Quote:
gorilla warfare

You might want to try Guerrilla warfare, because I'm pretty sure tossing barrels won't help.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#54 - 2012-07-11 08:28:07 UTC
FAIR figths?
yeah I want one of those frigates please please.

Frigate, Assault, Intercept, Recon.
Lol

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-07-11 08:53:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
The Playing To Win series of articles by Sirlin is an excellent read on the subject.

I don't consider a fight "fair" or "unfair". No fight is won or lost because one side can't do something the other side can (ignoring for a moment the few singular instances of dev misconduct and game glitches). A fight is won or lost because one side didn't do something the other did. Whether that something is precise ship control to maintain range and relative velocity, or jumping into an enemy gatecamp without a scout, or not motivating enough people to form up for a fight, or not recruiting enough members and maintaining allies to help you when you are outnumbered. All those are factors every side can change - and the fact that your 10 man gang ends up being shot at by 80 enemies is merely a result of you neglecting some of these factors. While one single fight, few minutes taken out of context, might seem unfair, the unfairness is only due to one side already losing another fight before that - not the fight to mash F1, but the fight to form, maintain, lead and motivate an alliance.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#56 - 2012-07-11 08:57:55 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
drdxie wrote:
SoCo continues to engage larger numbers

"If you bring more ships than me, I will dock up" - Malaku, SOCO FC

It ain't an empty threat either ^_____^

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#57 - 2012-07-21 16:21:25 UTC
Rene Fullchest wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
... You can, however, win the isk battle ...


I see this as just another meaningless metric, and that is proven by your choice of the term 'battle'.

One battle does not make a war. You cannot win the 'isk war' against a superior force with (almost) unlimited isk.

Again, talking about winning by the metric of isk destroyed versus isk lost is the whinging of losers, spin designed only to fool your own pilots, because the rest of the universe knows the truth.


Holding sov is the privilege of the superior numbers.

Inflicting damage without risking stationary assets is the privilege of the guerilla playstyle.

To each his own I guess.
Gorinia Sanford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2012-07-21 18:52:12 UTC
Rene Fullchest wrote:
I have, for so long, heard the whinging about "fair fights" that I thought I'd bring the topic to GD.

Whether you are a veteran of nullsec campaigns or a casual hisec miner, you know the refrain, some variation of "ZOMG, they came with three times our numbers, why they don't 'fight fair'?"

I've never gotten this. Yes, this is a game, but the simulation is of war, not some sports event with rules and equal numbers on teams. The simulation is of invasion and crushing one's enemy, of winners and losers, of the thrill of success and the humiliation of defeat.

I say crying about fair fights is the lament of losers. What say you?


If you're going to go to war, go Roman. Leave nothing alive and crush them with overwhelming numbers. This is how you fight a war.

When I spent time in the Army, my idea of a fair fight was the enemy died and I lived. Also, in an attacker vs. defender situation, the defender typically has a 3 to 1 advantage, especially if they're in prepared defenses.

A meeting engagement, that's a different animal entirely.

But bottom line, war is about winning, not "fair" fights.
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-07-21 19:09:36 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Better yet, seeing my shields go down as I get primaried because I jammed someone's scimitar. :ohdear:

It's hard to take any of your posts seriously when your killboard is basically you shooting at structures with 300 of your friends.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#60 - 2012-07-21 19:10:44 UTC
dupe

I'm an American, English is my second language...