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EVE FTL is really, really fast.

Author
Byshop Kayl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2011-09-22 17:09:43 UTC
Pyx Jasta wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:


Actually, no. You would have doppler effect so, red in the front, and nothing behind you. That assumes, of course, that light can actually intersect with your eyes at FTL speed. That would depend upon the technology used for FTL travel. If you're warping space light may not intersect your position at all. If you're traveling outside space/time, would there be light?


It'd be blue in front wouldn't it? You're approaching objects hence blueshift, and red behind (objects receding).



Correct, Red Shift occurs when an object's relative motion is away from the observer, and Blue Shift occurs when an object's relative motion is toward the observer.

 "Sanity is the playground of the unimaginitive.-- Anonymous "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.-- A. Einstein

Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2011-09-22 17:29:29 UTC
Pyx Jasta wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:


Actually, no. You would have doppler effect so, red in the front, and nothing behind you. That assumes, of course, that light can actually intersect with your eyes at FTL speed. That would depend upon the technology used for FTL travel. If you're warping space light may not intersect your position at all. If you're traveling outside space/time, would there be light?


It'd be blue in front wouldn't it? You're approaching objects hence blueshift, and red behind (objects receding).


Yeah you're right. Been a while since I looked at the spectrum and blue is a shorter wave length. But you get the idea.

Don't ban me, bro!

Vyl Vit
#43 - 2011-09-22 18:11:52 UTC
Basileus Volkan wrote:
Vyl Vit wrote:
Imagine if you will the EVE universe as a map sectioned off into squares.


Jumpgates are just a series of tubes, right? Lol


No, man. Tubas. Jumpgates are very large tubas.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.

KhaelaMensha Khaine
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2011-09-22 18:12:30 UTC
KaarBaak wrote:
Ah, but can you complete the Kessel run in under 12 parsecs?


/start mode=sheldoncooper

A parsec is actually a unit of length - not time - but then George Lucas didn't have wikipedia access back in the 70s :)

/end mode=sheldoncooper
Svizac Marmotov
#45 - 2011-09-22 18:46:28 UTC
If I got the numbers right, and assuming the light from "outside" space can reach you inside the warp bubble unaltered by it
(as still having same wavelength observed from "outside" ):

Traveling at 3AU/s would make lightwaves from the front be percieved at
X-ray wavelengths(0.3*10^-9 m),.
Of course, you couldn't see anything from behind because you're outrunning the light.

So staring through a window during FTL travel wouldn't let you see anything in any direction
and it wouldn't be recommended unless you like having radiating personality :)

Byshop Kayl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2011-09-22 18:57:29 UTC
Svizac Marmotov wrote:
If I got the numbers right, and assuming the light from "outside" space can reach you inside the warp bubble unaltered by it
(as still having same wavelength observed from "outside" ):

Traveling at 3AU/s would make lightwaves from the front be percieved at
X-ray wavelengths(0.3*10^-9 m),.
Of course, you couldn't see anything from behind because you're outrunning the light.

So staring through a window during FTL travel wouldn't let you see anything in any direction
and it wouldn't be recommended unless you like having radiating personality :)



I am SO not a physicist, so I may be totally wrong, but not all light is travelling directly towards you, wouldn't there be light at tangental vectors that would have differing relative velocities, thus reducing the perceived shift into more visible ranges?

(I was a SAR coxswain for awhile though, and the thought that pops into my head is something akin to CBDR, Constant Bearing, Decreasing Range. You have two vessels with differing vectors traveling at differing speeds that will collide with each other at a relatively slow or quick rate based on angle, not necessarily on their individual velocity.)

Or as I said, I could be totally wrong.

 "Sanity is the playground of the unimaginitive.-- Anonymous "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.-- A. Einstein

Alberio
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#47 - 2011-09-22 19:50:44 UTC
Byshop Kayl wrote:
Pyx Jasta wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:


Actually, no. You would have doppler effect so, red in the front, and nothing behind you. That assumes, of course, that light can actually intersect with your eyes at FTL speed. That would depend upon the technology used for FTL travel. If you're warping space light may not intersect your position at all. If you're traveling outside space/time, would there be light?


It'd be blue in front wouldn't it? You're approaching objects hence blueshift, and red behind (objects receding).



Correct, Red Shift occurs when an object's relative motion is away from the observer, and Blue Shift occurs when an object's relative motion is toward the observer.


This is one of my favorite little things in the game: that blue-shifting and red-shifting happen in warp. It's a neat little at-least-semi-realistic thing that I always enjoy when traveling.

Regarding the Kessell Run and black holes:

I think if a Pod Pilot fell into a black hole, that might be one of those "unrecoverable clone accidents" which happen occasionally. From what I recall of the lore, a breach in the pod causes the systems to take a flash brain scan of the pilots mind, and transmit it to the station where your clone is kept. This process kills the pilot, but they wake up in the clone bay good as new.

However: since light/information cannot escape the event horizon of a black hole, if you fell beyond it your brain scan would never reach the clone bay. Instead, the message would turn and fall with you into the black hole, only to be re-emitted trillions of years from now in the form of Hawking radiation.

EVE ships use FTL communication using some sort of weird quantum-entaglement boxes, so I suppose it's possible that your brain scan *may* be able to escape the event horizon of a black hole...but I feel that's probably unlikely. On the other hand, if you got too close to a black hole, it's likely the tidal forces would rip your ship (and subsequently, your pod) apart long before you dropped into the event horizon...so you might be safe afterall.

Back on the main topic: I think it's interesting to think about in terms of where I could get driving a car. For instance, in the time it takes me to drive from Houston to Austin, a warp-speed fit Interceptor could get to Proxima Centauri.

Unfortunately for the Interceptor, they don't have the luxury of being able to stop for Kolaches at Hruskas in Ellinger, TX. Sucks to be you, Interceptor!
Knug LiDi
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2011-09-22 20:11:28 UTC
Taran Summers wrote:
And STL is very very slow. Apollo 10 hit 11.08 km/s if that puts our normal speeds into scale.


Do this math:

In a dramiel, orbiting at 3000 m, at say 6,000 m/s

Your pod is feeling the effects of 12,000 G's

A human body would be a thin film spread along the inside of the pod under these conditions. So, yes EVE ships flying about normally aren't exceedingly fast (sublight) but very quick and very nimble.

Apollo 10 managed 11, 000 m/s, but the turning circle was rather large.

If only we could fall into a woman's arms

without falling into her hands

Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#49 - 2011-09-22 20:12:57 UTC
Alberio wrote:
Byshop Kayl wrote:
Pyx Jasta wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:


Actually, no. You would have doppler effect so, red in the front, and nothing behind you. That assumes, of course, that light can actually intersect with your eyes at FTL speed. That would depend upon the technology used for FTL travel. If you're warping space light may not intersect your position at all. If you're traveling outside space/time, would there be light?


It'd be blue in front wouldn't it? You're approaching objects hence blueshift, and red behind (objects receding).



Correct, Red Shift occurs when an object's relative motion is away from the observer, and Blue Shift occurs when an object's relative motion is toward the observer.


This is one of my favorite little things in the game: that blue-shifting and red-shifting happen in warp. It's a neat little at-least-semi-realistic thing that I always enjoy when traveling.

Regarding the Kessell Run and black holes:

I think if a Pod Pilot fell into a black hole, that might be one of those "unrecoverable clone accidents" which happen occasionally. From what I recall of the lore, a breach in the pod causes the systems to take a flash brain scan of the pilots mind, and transmit it to the station where your clone is kept. This process kills the pilot, but they wake up in the clone bay good as new.

However: since light/information cannot escape the event horizon of a black hole, if you fell beyond it your brain scan would never reach the clone bay. Instead, the message would turn and fall with you into the black hole, only to be re-emitted trillions of years from now in the form of Hawking radiation.

EVE ships use FTL communication using some sort of weird quantum-entaglement boxes, so I suppose it's possible that your brain scan *may* be able to escape the event horizon of a black hole...but I feel that's probably unlikely. On the other hand, if you got too close to a black hole, it's likely the tidal forces would rip your ship (and subsequently, your pod) apart long before you dropped into the event horizon...so you might be safe afterall.

Back on the main topic: I think it's interesting to think about in terms of where I could get driving a car. For instance, in the time it takes me to drive from Houston to Austin, a warp-speed fit Interceptor could get to Proxima Centauri.

Unfortunately for the Interceptor, they don't have the luxury of being able to stop for Kolaches at Hruskas in Ellinger, TX. Sucks to be you, Interceptor!


they use particle pairs separated such that info actually transmits instantly between places, basically they use the spin of a particle cut in half, when you modify it on one place, the other half of the particle gets the same spin variation and thus you violated and ****** up all physics and sent info faster than light for what it matters you sent it instantly...
Byshop Kayl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2011-09-22 20:15:48 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:

they use particle pairs separated such that info actually transmits instantly between places, basically they use the spin of a particle cut in half, when you modify it on one place, the other half of the particle gets the same spin variation and thus you violated and ****** up all physics and sent info faster than light for what it matters you sent it instantly...

Three cheers for quantum entanglement.

 "Sanity is the playground of the unimaginitive.-- Anonymous "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.-- A. Einstein

Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#51 - 2011-09-22 20:16:32 UTC
Knug LiDi wrote:
Taran Summers wrote:
And STL is very very slow. Apollo 10 hit 11.08 km/s if that puts our normal speeds into scale.


Do this math:

In a dramiel, orbiting at 3000 m, at say 6,000 m/s

Your pod is feeling the effects of 12,000 G's

A human body would be a thin film spread along the inside of the pod under these conditions. So, yes EVE ships flying about normally aren't exceedingly fast (sublight) but very quick and very nimble.

Apollo 10 managed 11, 000 m/s, but the turning circle was rather large.



in eve we have inertial stabilizers ... which is rather lucky for us or else we all would be some sort of red goo inside our ships...
Byshop Kayl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2011-09-22 20:18:05 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
Knug LiDi wrote:
Taran Summers wrote:
And STL is very very slow. Apollo 10 hit 11.08 km/s if that puts our normal speeds into scale.


Do this math:

In a dramiel, orbiting at 3000 m, at say 6,000 m/s

Your pod is feeling the effects of 12,000 G's

A human body would be a thin film spread along the inside of the pod under these conditions. So, yes EVE ships flying about normally aren't exceedingly fast (sublight) but very quick and very nimble.

Apollo 10 managed 11, 000 m/s, but the turning circle was rather large.



in eve we have inertial stabilizers ... which is rather lucky for us or else we all would be some sort of red goo inside our ships...


Let's not forget the fact they're were immersed in and breathing liquid during these high speed maneuvers.

 "Sanity is the playground of the unimaginitive.-- Anonymous "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.-- A. Einstein

Spineker
#53 - 2011-09-22 20:34:19 UTC
I just want an Infinite Improbability Drive


Infinite Improbability Drive

The Infinite Improbability Drive is a faster-than-light drive. The most prominent usage of the drive is in the starship Heart of Gold. It is based on a particular perception of quantum theory: a subatomic particle is most likely to be in a particular place, such as near the nucleus of an atom, but there is also a small probability of it being found very far from its point of origin (for example close to a distant star). Thus, a body could travel from place to place without passing through the intervening space (or hyperspace, for that matter), if you had sufficient control of probability.[1] According to the Guide, in this way the drive "passes through every conceivable point in every conceivable universe almost simultaneously," meaning the traveller is "never sure where they'll end up or even what species they'll be when they get there," therefore it's important to dress accordingly.
Psyrelle
Perimeter Provisions
#54 - 2011-09-22 20:49:24 UTC
Taran Summers wrote:
And STL is very very slow. Apollo 10 hit 11.08 km/s if that puts our normal speeds into scale.

dramiel mwd speed XD
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#55 - 2011-09-22 20:50:16 UTC
Byshop Kayl wrote:
Let's not forget the fact they're were immersed in and breathing liquid during these high speed maneuvers.

Even assuming the density of the fluid would be fine-tuned to be precisely equal to your body's average density, that would only help with not being crushed to death against the pod walls.
It wouldn't help against your internal organs (that have different densities) from crushing eachother inside of you.

========

[Stiletto, LONGWARP]
Ammatar Navy Power Diagnostic System
Ammatar Navy Power Diagnostic System
Ammatar Navy Power Diagnostic System

Small Capacitor Battery II
Small Capacitor Battery II
Small Capacitor Battery II
Small Capacitor Battery II

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Small Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Small Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II

+ HY-2 and CC-8 implants
=
Peak warp speed : 24.3 AU/sec
Full capacitor warp distance : 826.3 AU
Full capacitor total warp time (estimated) : around 40 sec
Cap recharge time : 1m 48s

Higher overall average long-term, long-range warp speeds MIGHT be attainable with cap rechargers instead of batteries, but frankly, you get the idea.

As for the OP and thread title... well, sure, the peak FTL speed of warping as measured from outside the warp bubble is quite a bit above light speed, but it's a LOT SLOWER than at least one other (more famous) fictional FTL speed, that in Star Wars (where they can cross the entire galaxy in a matter of days, maybe weeks tops).

Even the fastest EVE ships (as the one above), even ignoring the fact they need to go into and fall out of warp, wait for the capacitor to recharge and so on, so considering the peak warp speed only (even if effective long-term, long-range warp speed would probably only be about half of that), with 24.3 AU/sec, that's (thanks google):
24.3 (AU per second) = 1.38330889 lightyears per hour
The stellar disk of our galaxy is about 100k LY (as opposed to the pretty puny 80-100 LY that the EVE cluster has to offer), so...
(100 000 light years) / (1.38330889 (lightyears per hour)) = 8.24686037 years

Of course, that's the best case (and completely un-fictional-reality-stic) scenario.
In the fictional reality, you'll probably need at least 16 years with that ship, if not longer, assuming it keeps working with no resupplies, no pit stops, no maintenance or anything.
And of course, a more "regular" ship with its 3 AU/sec peak warp and much worse capacitor recharge could very well need over a century, if not closer to 2 centuries to pull the same thing off.
That puts a "regular" EVE ship about on par with the Voyager from Star Trek. Lol
Roh Voleto
Doomheim
#56 - 2011-09-22 20:55:54 UTC
Mai Kusoni wrote:
Roh Voleto wrote:
We could use navigation maneuvers far beyond the abilities of mortal pilots. We could also afford to screw it up, once in a while, since all we would lose is a ship and a clone.


Don't forget that there are actual crew aboard those ships. Hundreds to thousands of crew members that are sacrificed on a whim with every ship destruction.



So? It's not like they cost extra, or something.
Byshop Kayl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2011-09-22 20:58:15 UTC
Quote:
Even assuming the density of the fluid would be fine-tuned to be precisely equal to your body's average density, that would only help with not being crushed to death against the pod walls.
It wouldn't help against your internal organs (that have different densities) from crushing eachother inside of you.

I'm no physicist or biologist so I'll believe you, but I was under the impression by breathing the fluid you are equalizing quite a bit. Isn't this why the super deep divers breathe hydroflourocarbons? To prevent their bodies from being crushed by internal pressure?

 "Sanity is the playground of the unimaginitive.-- Anonymous "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.-- A. Einstein

Zverofaust
Ascetic Virtues
#58 - 2011-09-22 21:23:05 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Psuedo-science



What this guy said, basically. There may be a lot of factors when it comes to warp drive. First off it isn't exactly accurate; a warp of a couple of AU's is only accurate to within about 2 and a half kilometers; a warp of 300,000 AUs could lead to an astronomical degree of error and have a ship end up inside a planet or star. Second is the immense power needed; most ships are only capable of max 100-200 AU warp. An exploratory ship would literally have to make thousands of stops and restarts and course corrections along the way, one after another, which would most likely incinerate any engine (by today's standards, reusable spacecraft spend months or years between launches for repairs and maintenance) with absolutely no resupply or replacement parts. Then there is navigation -- within a solar system a ship is able to detect the precise locations of any solar objects in relative close proximity to create a warp path, but in the dead of inter-stellar space there are no nearby objects to detect, only incredibly distant points of reference and even then their locations are subject to interference as light itself is subject to the gravitational pull of other stars, black holes, other phenomenon and even the galaxy itself (and with today's technology, which I know isn't really very comparable, it can take years or decades of constant observation from multiple sources and intense data review and cross-checking to establish something like another star's exact position lightyears away).

All told it wouldn't be the same as clicking on a celestial object and hitting "Warp To". It'd be interesting to see some lore on this though.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#59 - 2011-09-22 21:48:05 UTC
Byshop Kayl wrote:
Quote:
Even assuming the density of the fluid would be fine-tuned to be precisely equal to your body's average density, that would only help with not being crushed to death against the pod walls.
It wouldn't help against your internal organs (that have different densities) from crushing eachother inside of you.

I'm no physicist or biologist so I'll believe you, but I was under the impression by breathing the fluid you are equalizing quite a bit. Isn't this why the super deep divers breathe hydroflourocarbons? To prevent their bodies from being crushed by internal pressure?

We're not talking external pressure, we're talking internal pressure and internal densities.
The lungs are just one of the cavities inside your body that are filled with gas (your digestive system is also quite full of various gases, as you no doubt occasionally notice), and not all internal organs have identical densities - muscle is noticeably denser than fat, for instance, and even if you're at the ideal weight, you still have quite a bit of stored fat ; and just think "bones", which are obviously denser than anything else. Given high enough g-forces, your skeleton will quite literally try to jump out of you, heh.

The problem with diving is not so much "crushing" pressure (which is something quite different from g-forces), it's not even so much the surviving "while down there" on regular air (very roughly 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 1% argon and traces of other things), at least not for short dives - some people might even enjoy the nitrogen intoxication "trippy" effects, it's basically getting high on nitrogen.
It's the part where you go back to the surface that's the problem, namely decompression sickness, caused by non-oxygen gases that were dissolved due to the high pressure into your blood and lipid-containing tissues. Even a relatively short 100m dive with regular compressed air requires gradual (and long) decompression. Heck, even "holding your breath" divers can experience it if they dive too many times in quick succession.
Nitrogen is particularly easily dissolved at even mild overpressure, so people that dive replace the nitrogen with either just pure oxygen (at moderate depths) or helium (for deeper dives). But even that doesn't get you over the risk of oxygen toxicity, which is a particularly nasty thing especially for longer exposure time (you basically corrode from the inside, with a host of symptoms).

As for the "hydroflourocarbons" bit, you're probably thinking of the movie "The Abyss" and their "liquid breathing" apparatus, which for the time being, is still science-fiction, even if it's close to being science.
To my knowledge, liquid breathing is still not in use for deep diving, because of the practical problems - what you do see in that particular movie can't happen, simply because the human lungs are incapable of exerting enough force to overcome the viscosity of the oxygenated liquid in order to get enough volume moved around to both get the needed O2 and expel enough CO2. You need a mechanical pump for that, one that pumps your lungs full of it then gets it out, then repeats the cycle.
Oh, and it's perfluorocarbons.
Byshop Kayl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2011-09-22 21:52:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Byshop Kayl
Akita T wrote:

As for the "hydroflourocarbons" bit, you're probably thinking of the movie "The Abyss" and their "liquid breathing" apparatus, which for the time being, is still science-fiction, even if it's close to being science.
To my knowledge, liquid breathing is still not in use for deep diving, because of the practical problems - what you do see in that particular movie can't happen, simply because the human lungs are incapable of exerting enough force to overcome the viscosity of the oxygenated liquid in order to get enough volume moved around to both get the needed O2 and expel enough CO2. You need a mechanical pump for that, one that pumps your lungs full of it then gets it out, then repeats the cycle.
Oh, and it's perfluorocarbons.

Like I said I'm no scientist. Smile

What I was actually thinking of was an experiment that was run many years ago with a rodent of some type living completely within the liquid. Their biggest challenge as I recall was preventing him from getting pneumonia when they let him out.

Thanks for the response, I enjoyed the education. :-)

 "Sanity is the playground of the unimaginitive.-- Anonymous "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.-- A. Einstein