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Unable to Decide: Proteus or Legion
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Aiko Kurushio
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#1 - 2012-07-09 17:23:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Aiko Kurushio
As stated in the title, I'm currently planning to aquire the skills for flying a T3-cruiser.
Now the problem is, I like both the Proteus and the Legion, and as I haven't spent lots of time specializing in a single weapon "faction" (I only have Gunnery skilled to V and I can use T1 amarr Lasers) so I'd be flexible there. My (or my corps) current plan is to gradually advance into 0.0 space, so I'd like my ship to be able to take on 0.0 PVE situations (such as rats in asteroid belts) as well as doing decently in Solo - and Fleet PVP.
I'd much appreciate any suggestions or advice on my decision, thank you in advance =)
Aiko
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#2 - 2012-07-09 17:33:56 UTC
chances are for either ship your rig choices will be different for pve and pvp activities. However, since you haven't trained for either or either weapon system, its kind of a larger, more long term choice that you're making. My 2 cents is that both are respectable in solo and gang pvp, however the legion has the definite edge in pve (once you train your gunnery skills). For pve, the ishtar is the commonly accepted cheaper, better, more versatile alternative to the proteus (once you have good drone skills).

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-07-09 18:17:14 UTC
Batelle wrote:
chances are for either ship your rig choices will be different for pve and pvp activities. However, since you haven't trained for either or either weapon system, its kind of a larger, more long term choice that you're making. My 2 cents is that both are respectable in solo and gang pvp, however the legion has the definite edge in pve (once you train your gunnery skills). For pve, the ishtar is the commonly accepted cheaper, better, more versatile alternative to the proteus (once you have good drone skills).



Pretty much this.

Would also tell you since you skill gunnery support skills to 5 (this is not an option) train only small/meds hybrids/lasers it's not a waste of time. Train both ships skill at 4 then all subs at 5 it's not really a very long plan then you'll have an excellent choice of ships:

-Legion is a very strong brick everyone loves in Incursion sites, strong ship in wh's and an awesome tanky/bait pvp, seems much better than I can realise and will be training for that last T3 soon enough

-Proteus is quite versatile for pvp, pve just forget it. You can use the UBoat version (cloacky) who still spits more dmg than many heavy assault cruisers once you give it a little lovi'n (such hull price tag deserves you increase slightly tank/dps/point) it's just a solo assassin. I don't like that much this kind of game play but if you do you can have tons of fun and nice looting.

The heavy tackle version is actually tackle/Gank, and what a gank ship !! -pimp it and you get over 1K dps at best optimal with best dmg ammo, can shoot a very decent 600'ish or plus above 30km with Null and still keep a generous Drone bay for a set of ECM drones and 2 set of lights or 1 set of met drones.
Using best Faction points gives you a scram above 16km without heat and disruptor for about 40km+ without heat, a very decent buffer you should not abuse without logistics, you can get very nice fights solo buffer fitted but at this price tag and pimp'n you must really know what you're doing with.

There's already 2 threads about Proteus in this same forum, read them and make yourself an idea but at the end, I still advice you to train for both.

brb
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#4 - 2012-07-09 18:18:27 UTC
For PvE, definitely Legion. No ammo (nice in W-space diving/ large complexes), good range variation.

For PvP, kinda depends what you want to do. Nothing wrong with the Legion if you're cool with laserboats in general, but the Proteus gives you the stealth fit + bonused blasters option, which is pretty cool.

Oh, and have T2 medium weapons trained before you even bother buying a T3 of any type. T1 weapons on a T3 boat is so sad it makes baby Jesus cry.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-07-10 00:14:09 UTC
I hear the HAM legion is BEASTLY in any PvP situation.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Alara IonStorm
#6 - 2012-07-10 00:43:19 UTC
I'm going to be getting Gallente Cruiser up to V soon and since everyone says it is terrible at PvE I was wondering about the viability of this.

[Proteus, Run Down]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Corelum B-Type Medium Armor Repairer

Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Domination 10MN MicroWarpdrive

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Proteus Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Stable with everything running, breaks 1600mps and with Implants you can go even higher. I know it isn't the best ship for PvE but I think it could do most solo PvE stuff pretty quick.

Think it would work?
Aiko Kurushio
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#7 - 2012-07-10 01:00:48 UTC
First of all, thanks for all the replies (I hope there's still more to come ^^)

as for your fitting, I haven't really had any deeper insight into Gallente Fittings so I can't really judge on the fitting you posted but based on what I know it seems pretty decent if you can keep it Cap-Stable that way.
Aestivalis Saidrian
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#8 - 2012-07-10 01:10:51 UTC
I have a Legion. Its a hell of a ride but doesn't seem as versatile as the Tengu, as much of a rapecannon that the Proteus is, or the sheer slipperines that is the Loki.

That being said, its a solid ship that is VERY good for operations where resupply is a very, very unknown thing, provided you don't mind using standard T1 ammo.
Aiko Kurushio
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#9 - 2012-07-10 01:21:32 UTC
Aestivalis Saidrian wrote:
I have a Legion. Its a hell of a ride but doesn't seem as versatile as the Tengu, as much of a rapecannon that the Proteus is, or the sheer slipperines that is the Loki.

That being said, its a solid ship that is VERY good for operations where resupply is a very, very unknown thing, provided you don't mind using standard T1 ammo.


Would you consider it to be solid in PVP, or is it "outclassed" by the other T3 cruisers ?
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-07-10 03:39:03 UTC
Everyone says the Proteus sucks at PVE, but they fail to think outside the box sometimes. Especially now with the drone amp mods, you can fit an Ishtar style proteus that can put out similar damage, even with 4 vs 5 heavy/sentry drones. At the same time it retains a better tank, and more versatility depending on what you plan to do.

For mission running, I would personally still use an ishtar. But that's just because it does it well at a lower cost

For exploration, a sentry proteus can do every bit as well as an Ishtar. With the added advantage of a generally better tank, and the ability to use the scanning sub. At level 5 that's a 50% bonus to scanning strength.

For nullsec exploration, same thing, except you can also put together a fit that does well while also being able to use the nullifier sub for very easy no scout nullsec travel.
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#11 - 2012-07-10 07:06:15 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

Think it would work?


What kind of pve do you have in mind exactly?
Blasters are fun but very tedious at times. Drone Proteus is much better here but it really depends on activity you wish to pursue.
I used blaster Proteus in Seprentis lowsec ( max gank min tank ) and it worked nicely and was a lot of fun ( as far as pve fun can go ). Had to put a lot of effort into piloting though.

Derath Ellecon wrote:
Everyone says the Proteus sucks at PVE, but they fail to think outside the box sometimes. Especially now with the drone amp mods, you can fit an Ishtar style proteus that can put out similar damage, even with 4 vs 5 heavy/sentry drones. At the same time it retains a better tank, and more versatility depending on what you plan to do.

For mission running, I would personally still use an ishtar. But that's just because it does it well at a lower cost

For exploration, a sentry proteus can do every bit as well as an Ishtar. With the added advantage of a generally better tank, and the ability to use the scanning sub. At level 5 that's a 50% bonus to scanning strength.

For nullsec exploration, same thing, except you can also put together a fit that does well while also being able to use the nullifier sub for very easy no scout nullsec travel.



^ THIS ^

People saying that Proteus is terrible in pve have NEVER actually used that ship ( they probably don't even have it trained ).
Even in blaster configuration it is quite good ( just tedious at times ). Drone Proteus is quite close to Tengu in pve.

I use this one in Serpentis low/null and Guristas low. Works extremely well. IN sub in cargo hold of course. If I want to use more heavy drone oriented ship then I switch one Omni for drone navcom. Can fit rails instead when using sentries exclusively. Blasters are just personal preference.

[Proteus, Rogue One]
Corelum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Shadow Serpentis Armor Kinetic Hardener
Shadow Serpentis Armor Thermic Hardener
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Corelum C-Type 10MN MicroWarpdrive
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Sisters Deep Space Scanner Probe I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Improved Cloaking Device II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Proteus Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Proteus Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Proteus Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors

Warden II x4
Wasp II x4
Hornet II x5
Alara IonStorm
#12 - 2012-07-10 07:13:43 UTC
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:

What kind of pve do you have in mind exactly?
Blasters are fun but very tedious at times. Drone Proteus is much better here but it really depends on activity you wish to pursue.
I used blaster Proteus in Seprentis lowsec ( max gank min tank ) and it worked nicely and was a lot of fun ( as far as pve fun can go ). Had to put a lot of effort into piloting though.

I'm thinking Lvl 4 Missions. More of a niche thing really, I am wondering if the MWD would make it on par with any other T1 Mission BS.

If I go back to Null or anything along those lines I'd use something less pimp like a T2 Sentry Dominix Maelstrom, Abaddon or Raven for Anoms.

Basically I'd be getting it for getting its sake since I PvP in Gal Cruisers a lot and am taking it to V.
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#13 - 2012-07-10 08:19:14 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

I'm thinking Lvl 4 Missions. More of a niche thing really, I am wondering if the MWD would make it on par with any other T1 Mission BS.

If I go back to Null or anything along those lines I'd use something less pimp like a T2 Sentry Dominix Maelstrom, Abaddon or Raven for Anoms.

Basically I'd be getting it for getting its sake since I PvP in Gal Cruisers a lot and am taking it to V.


The only missions I did were tutorials and SOE epic arc so can't really help you with that.
I don't know how different are L4s from lowsec/nullsec complexes. I have no problem using that drone Proteus there. Assuming that L4s are on par with most of those complexes it would work ( at least against Serpentis/Guristas ). The only thing to consider here is efficiency. I really don't know if drone/blaster Proteus could compete with dedicated mission Battleships in that regard ( I suppose not ).
Proteus is great for pvp, wormholes ( yes even pve when in gang ) and complexes. Missioning might not be it's best application however.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#14 - 2012-07-10 08:49:46 UTC
Its probably already been said but the Proteus is a beastly heavy tackle boat, with extended point/scram range and a huge buffer tank, they are the choice tackle (Along with web Lokis ofc) for ABHAC/Hellcat gangs.

The Legion suffers a little in the EWAR choice as it lacks range and occupies high slots which could be used for valuable DPS, in gangs it tends to just become somewhat of a pimped Zealot, performing the same role at many times the price, I haven't seen the HAM fit a great deal, but I hear it can be potent when well flown.

Overall

Both have there uses in solo PVP, for gangs the Proteus is the choice heavy armour tackle, the Legion tends to fall a little flat, its EWAR bonus being better filled by more specialised ships such as Bhaalghorns which also have heavy neuts to gain the extended range required, this generally means the Legion is limited to HAM solo boat, or a pimped Zealot.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-07-10 10:47:21 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I'm going to be getting Gallente Cruiser up to V soon and since everyone says it is terrible at PvE I was wondering about the viability of this.

[Proteus, Run Down]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Corelum B-Type Medium Armor Repairer

Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Domination 10MN MicroWarpdrive

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Proteus Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Stable with everything running, breaks 1600mps and with Implants you can go even higher. I know it isn't the best ship for PvE but I think it could do most solo PvE stuff pretty quick.

Think it would work?



Only if you fight Angels rats since BS and other stuff like to come close, still you are going to MWD around a lot to get those sniper BS around 50km, other than those Angel rats means you have to fit rails and I'm sure you know how awful Med rails are.

brb
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-07-10 10:52:12 UTC
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:

Think it would work?


What kind of pve do you have in mind exactly?
Blasters are fun but very tedious at times. Drone Proteus is much better here but it really depends on activity you wish to pursue.
I used blaster Proteus in Seprentis lowsec ( max gank min tank ) and it worked nicely and was a lot of fun ( as far as pve fun can go ). Had to put a lot of effort into piloting though.

Derath Ellecon wrote:
Everyone says the Proteus sucks at PVE, but they fail to think outside the box sometimes. Especially now with the drone amp mods, you can fit an Ishtar style proteus that can put out similar damage, even with 4 vs 5 heavy/sentry drones. At the same time it retains a better tank, and more versatility depending on what you plan to do.

For mission running, I would personally still use an ishtar. But that's just because it does it well at a lower cost

For exploration, a sentry proteus can do every bit as well as an Ishtar. With the added advantage of a generally better tank, and the ability to use the scanning sub. At level 5 that's a 50% bonus to scanning strength.

For nullsec exploration, same thing, except you can also put together a fit that does well while also being able to use the nullifier sub for very easy no scout nullsec travel.



^ THIS ^

People saying that Proteus is terrible in pve have NEVER actually used that ship ( they probably don't even have it trained ).
Even in blaster configuration it is quite good ( just tedious at times ). Drone Proteus is quite close to Tengu in pve.

I use this one in Serpentis low/null and Guristas low. Works extremely well. IN sub in cargo hold of course. If I want to use more heavy drone oriented ship then I switch one Omni for drone navcom. Can fit rails instead when using sentries exclusively. Blasters are just personal preference.

[Proteus, Rogue One]
Corelum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Shadow Serpentis Armor Kinetic Hardener
Shadow Serpentis Armor Thermic Hardener
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Corelum C-Type 10MN MicroWarpdrive
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Sisters Deep Space Scanner Probe I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Improved Cloaking Device II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Proteus Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Proteus Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Proteus Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors

Warden II x4
Wasp II x4
Hornet II x5



You know an Ishtar is better than that Proteus you pretend is awesome right?
I will never understand those dudes liking AFK game play telling drone boats are awesome...jesus, that's hella boring and tedious with drones not responding correctly (drones bug and it's not new right?), have an awful travel time and you have to switch in between lights for small stuff then larger for larger stuff. Your overall dps is horrible.



brb
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-07-10 10:57:40 UTC
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:

I'm thinking Lvl 4 Missions. More of a niche thing really, I am wondering if the MWD would make it on par with any other T1 Mission BS.

If I go back to Null or anything along those lines I'd use something less pimp like a T2 Sentry Dominix Maelstrom, Abaddon or Raven for Anoms.

Basically I'd be getting it for getting its sake since I PvP in Gal Cruisers a lot and am taking it to V.


The only missions I did were tutorials and SOE epic arc so can't really help you with that.
I don't know how different are L4s from lowsec/nullsec complexes. I have no problem using that drone Proteus there. Assuming that L4s are on par with most of those complexes it would work ( at least against Serpentis/Guristas ). The only thing to consider here is efficiency. I really don't know if drone/blaster Proteus could compete with dedicated mission Battleships in that regard ( I suppose not ).
Proteus is great for pvp, wormholes ( yes even pve when in gang ) and complexes. Missioning might not be it's best application however.



You can not compete vs Faction fit Machariel Vindi Tengu, those take in between 10 min to 20 min to clean Guristas sanctums, do you see the difference?

I'm not saying your Drone Prot can't kill stuff, just saying it's the awfullest choice of all awful ones you could do. Prot it's all blasters gank, point, support drones, witch means if you fit Te's instead of MFS you can shoot for about 35km with Null but low dps. You'll be better in a shield mega full lows of dmg mods and Rails ganking those rats from 0 to 90km without much of a problem.

brb
Alara IonStorm
#18 - 2012-07-10 11:01:01 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

Only if you fight Angels rats since BS and other stuff like to come close, still you are going to MWD around a lot to get those sniper BS around 50km, other than those Angel rats means you have to fit rails and I'm sure you know how awful Med rails are.

Not a lot, they mostly stay close together in groups. and burn away from you at 100m/s. You would only have to really burn once per group and with even cheap implants it goes like 1750m/s so about 30-40 seconds then most stuff is like 10km away.

Not to hard to chase those rats down and put out your high DPS especially with a 14km Web. I don't think it would take long at all to get into range of any ships.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-07-10 11:05:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

Only if you fight Angels rats since BS and other stuff like to come close, still you are going to MWD around a lot to get those sniper BS around 50km, other than those Angel rats means you have to fit rails and I'm sure you know how awful Med rails are.

Not a lot, they mostly stay close together in groups. and burn away from you at 100m/s. You would only have to really burn once per group and with even cheap implants it goes like 1750m/s so about 30-40 seconds then most stuff is like 10km away.

Not to hard to chase those rats down and put out your high DPS especially with a 14km Web. I don't think it would take long at all to get into range of any ships.



Welp, give it a try maybe you'll get some piloting fun for a while but in the end you'll be a lot better cleaning pve sites/lvl4's with BS or Tengu because those guns size don't fit that well in to pve, applying theoretical dps with Prot mean you're on top of those rats, it's fun a couple sites but it becomes seriously tedious quite fast.
Why don't you just use a blaster Mega instead? -same dps, better drone bay, base shooting with Null 40km and shield tanked just becomes a nasty rat ganker (1700dps helps)

brb
Alara IonStorm
#20 - 2012-07-10 11:19:24 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

Why don't you just use a blaster Mega instead? -same dps, better drone bay, base shooting with Null 40km and shield tanked just becomes a nasty rat ganker (1700dps helps)

I don't like low tanked ships. I alt tab out to do other things when I mission which is why I own a Navy Scorp instead of a Navy Raven. It has more buffer and doesn't need reps as much. Also the blaster Mega hits deep in falloff, the MWD Caps her out at an extreme rate and it takes a while to get up to speed.

After the Null Buff I came up with this while trying to find PvE Blaster Boats but I am a long way off training Kronos. I will probably go Vargur first since it has the extra tank the Mach doesn't The Rig choice looks a little wonky I know.

[Kronos, Blaster]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Centus C-Type Large Armor Repairer

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Domination 100MN MicroWarpdrive

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II

Large Dynamic Fuel Valve II
Large Dynamic Fuel Valve II

Still it is a fun thought to me at least.
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