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T2 Ammo. vs T2 Missiles
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Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-07-08 16:11:41 UTC
So I've been mainly using Projectile Turrets on my Minmatar ships but I recently acquired a Typhoon so I was looking over the whole Missile weapon system.

What's with the rather severe penalties applied to T2 Missiles? There is no penalty on T2 Turret ammo. Hardly seems fair.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#2 - 2012-07-08 16:16:37 UTC
You mean aside from the tracking and/or range penalties?
Metolz
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-07-08 16:20:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Metolz
Cambarus wrote:
You mean aside from the tracking and/or range penalties?


Thread complete.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-07-08 16:21:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Gungnir
Cambarus wrote:
You mean aside from the tracking and/or range penalties?


That applies to T1 ammo as well, it is nothing inherently unique to T2 ammo. For Projectile Turrets you have, for example, EMP which is a high damage ammo with range penalty.

Take Rage missiles; they do more raw damage but have a harder time dealing it all due to slower explosion velocity. To me that would be enough of a penalty, comparable to the downsides of T2 Turret ammo.


Does it really need to make your ship a bigass target as well?

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#5 - 2012-07-08 16:34:28 UTC
Long story short, some T2 gun ammunition also used to have substantial penalties. Now it doesn't. Missiles still do, but it's honestly not all that crippling.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#6 - 2012-07-08 16:39:30 UTC
For hybrids:

Void has a 50% falloff reduction, 25% optimal reduction, 25% tracking reduction, and 25% cap use increase
Javelin has a 75% optimal reduction

For lasers:
Conflag has a cap use increase of 25% and a tracking penalty of 30%

Gleam has a 75% optimal range nerf

For projectiles:
Quake has a 75% optimal nerf
Hail has a 30% tracking nerf, and a 25% falloff nerf.

Given that all t1 ammo made for best DPS has a 50% optimal range nerf and no other penalties, those are some pretty hefty drawbacks on t2 ammo of all kinds.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-07-08 17:35:47 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Long story short, some T2 gun ammunition also used to have substantial penalties. Now it doesn't. Missiles still do, but it's honestly not all that crippling.


The velocity penalty makes my 'Phoon cry....

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#8 - 2012-07-08 18:16:26 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Long story short, some T2 gun ammunition also used to have substantial penalties. Now it doesn't. Missiles still do, but it's honestly not all that crippling.


The velocity penalty makes my 'Phoon cry....

Yeah and the cap penalty for Conflag makes it almost useless. Your point?
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-07-08 19:19:31 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Long story short, some T2 gun ammunition also used to have substantial penalties. Now it doesn't. Missiles still do, but it's honestly not all that crippling.


The velocity penalty makes my 'Phoon cry....

Yeah and the cap penalty for Conflag makes it almost useless. Your point?


Is asking for balance too much to ask?

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos
The Whale Hunters Association
#10 - 2012-07-08 19:46:40 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Long story short, some T2 gun ammunition also used to have substantial penalties. Now it doesn't. Missiles still do, but it's honestly not all that crippling.


The velocity penalty makes my 'Phoon cry....

Yeah and the cap penalty for Conflag makes it almost useless. Your point?


conflag is fine for npcing
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#11 - 2012-07-08 20:28:27 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Long story short, some T2 gun ammunition also used to have substantial penalties. Now it doesn't. Missiles still do, but it's honestly not all that crippling.


The velocity penalty makes my 'Phoon cry....

Yeah and the cap penalty for Conflag makes it almost useless. Your point?


Is asking for balance too much to ask?

The point is that it IS balanced, you would rather that it not be. All t2 ammo has drawbacks, just because you don't like the drawbacks on missiles doesn't make them unbalanced.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-07-08 20:48:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Gungnir
Cambarus wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Long story short, some T2 gun ammunition also used to have substantial penalties. Now it doesn't. Missiles still do, but it's honestly not all that crippling.


The velocity penalty makes my 'Phoon cry....

Yeah and the cap penalty for Conflag makes it almost useless. Your point?


Is asking for balance too much to ask?

The point is that it IS balanced, you would rather that it not be. All t2 ammo has drawbacks, just because you don't like the drawbacks on missiles doesn't make them unbalanced.


I was referring moreso to the Conflag. vs. Scorch situation, but whatever.

Regardless, you've not convinced me that this balanced. T2 missiles, in addition to having stuff like larger explosion radius also apply penalties to your ship. Ammo just have penalties that apply to themselves, not your ship.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-07-08 21:24:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Is asking for balance too much to ask?


I think you missed the point, no one is trying to convince you, they're trying to explain you what you seem not willing to understand.

Radius drawback on T2 missiles is ridiculous when you factorise the +dps and utilise the right ammo for the right target, you know try to kill Ceptors with Torpedoes for instance is not the best choice.
T2 precision drawback is nothing compared with a -25% tracking or -75% range.

brb
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-07-08 21:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Gungnir
*sigh* Roll

It is the penalties they apply to your ship that are unfair, not the penalties on the missiles themselves. I can totally understand the penalty to hit smaller targets when faced with an increase in raw damage potential. That is fine - but - the reduction in max velocity/increase in signature radius makes no sense and is totally imbalanced.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-07-08 21:43:48 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
*sigh* Roll

It is the penalties they apply to your ship that are unfair, not the penalties on the missiles themselves. I can totally understand the penalty to hit smaller targets when faced with an increase in raw damage potential. That is fine - but - the reduction in max velocity/increase in signature radius makes no sense and is totally imbalanced.



If those were really unfair no one would use perma MWD Drakes for pvp, you know they get a 3km radius with T2 ammo and 2400 with T1/Faction right?
Your ship radius is less than a problem the moment you fit a mwd in whatever ship you fly and with AB this has even less importance.

So, lets make it simpler: would you trade your sign+speed drawback for -75% flight time and -50 capacitor (Fury) and +75% flight time but -25% dmg? (not exactly the same thing but close)

brb
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-07-08 22:01:33 UTC
Signature radius is the lesser of two evils.

Velocity is a mother though, especially when Torpedoes or concerned.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Saile Litestrider
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-07-08 22:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Saile Litestrider
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Is asking for balance too much to ask?

When you give me multifrequency and antimatter with a 200km optimal in my railguns and beam lasers, you can have a smaller explosion radius and velocity penalty on rage/fury missiles Pirate
Saile Litestrider
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-07-08 22:02:16 UTC
Double post, thanks forums
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-07-08 22:04:55 UTC
Saile Litestrider wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Is asking for balance too much to ask?

When you give me multifrequency and antimatter with a 200km optimal in my railguns and beam lasers, you can have a smaller explosion radius and velocity on rage/fury missiles Pirate


Way to not read the topic before posting.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#20 - 2012-07-08 22:05:25 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
*sigh* Roll

It is the penalties they apply to your ship that are unfair, not the penalties on the missiles themselves. I can totally understand the penalty to hit smaller targets when faced with an increase in raw damage potential. That is fine - but - the reduction in max velocity/increase in signature radius makes no sense and is totally imbalanced.

Torps have blaster DPS at pulse ranges with better damage type selection than ACs. I'll concede that one of their drawbacks needs to go if you'll admit that one of their advantages needs to go as well.
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