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Crime & Punishment

 
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Some dumb miners just don't learn

Author
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#161 - 2012-07-22 16:23:37 UTC
Tiamet Cordova wrote:
So this thread turned out to be a typical rollercoaster of fail.... It started with someone patting himself on the back over a silly suicide gank or 2 or 4 and quickly turned into a freshman retreat pissing match.


Relatively new to Eve I've learned one thing that the ganked seemed to know and the proud ganker hasn't figured out
(any ship you fly will get popped eventually) if you mine... you will lose ships much more often.

The hulk pilot returned to the spot he was ganked for a reason. The %'s game. Mining with 2 hulks will net some serious $$ over a large stretch of hours. Believe it or not... he more than likely has paid for those hulks 10 times over from doing just what he did. Return to the belt and start his operation back up. At some point the obnoxious grief hungry belt roaming parasites will get bored and find something else to do....


As long as anyone who is mining is smart enough to not let a scuicide gank scare them away from asteroid belts you will nearly ALWAYS come out positive on the $$ side of the equation (lose a ship or two or not)

Maybe ill get popped tomorrow... chances are however probably not... The reason the system works is there will be many more days where you mine freely and rake in ore to vastly outrank your losses in random isolated gank/shiplosses....


an isolated hulk gank being celebrated by a few t1 alts or bored griefers is like a losing team scoring a touchdown at the end of a Blow out football game... then rushing the field and tearing down the goalpost to celebrate their "score"

You may want to go check your math again. Hulks are incredibly expensive. And ore (especialy highsec ore) isn't that great in terms of income.
Genna Illiad
Bird-in-Hand
#162 - 2012-07-22 16:34:35 UTC
I don't understand. Why would anyone want to kill a poor, defenseless miner?
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#163 - 2012-07-22 16:37:08 UTC
Genna Illiad wrote:
I don't understand. Why would anyone want to kill a poor, defenseless miner?

Do you have any idea how much you can make off of t2 slavage?
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#164 - 2012-07-22 17:21:03 UTC
Tiamet Cordova wrote:
...if you mine... you will lose ships much more often.....

And that is where most miners are wrong.

Mining is just as risky as flying any other ship class in a hostile area.


You can still be nearly 100% safe, even while mining.
It just takes a little bit of effort (oh no evil word) and planning (another evil word).

If more miners would mine like I have suggested on these forums more times than I can count, there would be about 5 miner gankers in EVE and everyone would aspire to be as skilled and dedicated as they are.

And with even less work, miners can decrease their risk with a little loss of yield (oh no evil concept) by fitting a tank. It won't stop all ganks, but in the higher secs at least it will not in any way be profitable to gank you (unless you use deadspace and officer mods... don't do that).
Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#165 - 2012-07-22 17:51:55 UTC
Corina: I agree, I've never lost a mining boat to a player. I often mine in HS and LS when I have the urge and love grav spawns. Quite lucrative. However, I can't sit on rocks for hours unless it's ark or crok, etc.


Genna: I think it's mostly because perps are lazy. Ganking provides quick returns when it's successful. I just think it should not be allowed in HS in order to give new players a chance to learn the game.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#166 - 2012-07-22 18:01:51 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Corina: I agree, I've never lost a mining boat to a player. I often mine in HS and LS when I have the urge and love grav spawns. Quite lucrative. However, I can't sit on rocks for hours unless it's ark or crok, etc.


Genna: I think it's mostly because perps are lazy. Ganking provides quick returns when it's successful. I just think it should not be allowed in HS in order to give new players a chance to learn the game.

New players do have a chance. Ganking is prohibited of noobies (not clearly defined...) in Rookie systems and while they do the Epic Arc.

Once you've finished that, you should know better.

HS is not the newbie area. It is the safer than LS area.


The purpose of HS is so that mineral prices can be somewhat reasonable (aside from RP reasons I mean). This is also the purpose of ganking.
Remove it, and mineral prices would plummet, along with the price of everything else. It would make EVE stagnant.
Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#167 - 2012-07-22 20:03:38 UTC
Corina: "The purpose of HS is so that mineral prices can be somewhat reasonable (aside from RP reasons I mean). This is also the purpose of ganking. Remove it, and mineral prices would plummet, along with the price of everything else. It would make EVE stagnant. "

hm. Well haven't read a dev post to that affect. True minerals prices would drop, why is that a bad thing? Make Eve stagnant?? I don't see that at all, there is WH, LS, and NS space to play in, why is safe HS space guaranteed to stagnate Eve?


- Majiir
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#168 - 2012-07-22 21:02:25 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Corina: "The purpose of HS is so that mineral prices can be somewhat reasonable (aside from RP reasons I mean). This is also the purpose of ganking. Remove it, and mineral prices would plummet, along with the price of everything else. It would make EVE stagnant. "

hm. Well haven't read a dev post to that affect. True minerals prices would drop, why is that a bad thing? Make Eve stagnant?? I don't see that at all, there is WH, LS, and NS space to play in, why is safe HS space guaranteed to stagnate Eve?


- Majiir

The EVE market runs on supply and demand.

If HS became truly safe, then trading, mining, and manufacturing would become crappy professions.

The only ones who would make a decent amount of money would be Tech moon holders (though this is changing... eventually) and bounty miners (missions, ratting, anoms, etc).

This woudl be a serious imbalance, and essentially destroy a significant part of the game.
Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#169 - 2012-07-22 21:55:27 UTC
Corina: "If HS became truly safe, then trading, mining, and manufacturing would become crappy professions.

The only ones who would make a decent amount of money would be Tech moon holders (though this is changing... eventually) and bounty miners (missions, ratting, anoms, etc)."

Well again I'm still not seeing the logic around why trading, mining, and manufacturing would be crappy professions given safe HS space.. Cheaper raw materials means better profits for manufacturers, as a builder I would love to see that :) and would be building like crazy. ROI margins are getting so thin now it's difficult to turn a profit on many ship builds, which of course drives the price of ships up... for everyone. T2 and Capital parts/components are simply stupid expensive and suck a vast portion of profits right out what with all the new crap you have to build with. I'm not an economics expert but still.. I can see my own costs of doing business and they have escalated a lot recently. One of my goals is to build a jump freighter for personal use, still trying to figure out how to get components reasonably priced for that one. But I'm starting to wonder if it's even feasible for a single player to do that.

Now it probably would require better bot policing maybe. I've never used a bot but have read they are quite effective.

Anyway I acknowledge your opinion on it, but so far mine remains the same. o/

- Majiir
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#170 - 2012-07-22 22:36:24 UTC
Genna Illiad wrote:
I don't understand. Why would anyone want to kill a poor, defenseless miner?


Player-ships make prettier urp-splosions than NPC ships.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.

Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#171 - 2012-07-22 23:04:23 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Corina: "The purpose of HS is so that mineral prices can be somewhat reasonable (aside from RP reasons I mean). This is also the purpose of ganking. Remove it, and mineral prices would plummet, along with the price of everything else. It would make EVE stagnant. "

hm. Well haven't read a dev post to that affect. True minerals prices would drop, why is that a bad thing? Make Eve stagnant?? I don't see that at all, there is WH, LS, and NS space to play in, why is safe HS space guaranteed to stagnate Eve?


- Majiir


The EVE market functions because of two things. It only functions, at all, because of these two things:

Demand is the most obvious, but the other is the velocity of supply through the market.

IOW, things getting urp-sploded must be replaced more often, even if the sheer numbers of things built/sold don't change much, and that's what makes player-crafting for profit possible.

If nothing got blowed-up on a fairly frequent basis, then yes, the price of things would drop.

But it would drop because there was no demand, so who would you sell--or more to the point, who would need to buy from you--all that suddenly cheap-to-build stuff to? How would you get the money/time invested into building same back?

The "supply" side in this game's economy is guaranteed:

100% re-spawning ores, NPC loot-drops, non-depleteable moon and PI resources, etc, which actually makes it fairly difficult to drive prices thereof permanently upward, barring CCP intervention.

That leaves only demand, and only constant demand as the real driver of the EVE-economy.

That demand is a result of destruction and conflict, and the fact that we have guaranteed non-scarce resources is one less driver of conflict. That leaves other drivers needing to step in, of which, as much as you may hate it, sui-ganking is a great one, as it makes expensive/resource-intensive things urp-splode, which drives demand for replacement.

And given how much of the player base is in hisec glutting up it's markets, then if you really want to make money as a crafter, then you wouldn't be against ganking--you'd be for the removal of CONCORD even, because that would guarantee maximum consistent demand, and turn-over of stock--that is, freeing up the money you'd invested in same, with profit, to re-invest, and put it to work for you again more quickly.

That's how you know who the really smart industrialists/crafters in this game are:

They are NOT the WoW-kiddies squealing like little fat piglets at the stockyard for a 100% safe hisec--they are the ones whom, at least tacitly, support the gankers/griefers/etc, and the ethos of non-consensual PvP being able to happen potentially anytime, even in deep 1.0:

Because without the latter, the former knows that they would have little/no profession or income:

There would simply be no reason or need for it.


Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.

Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#172 - 2012-07-23 01:42:12 UTC
Tarr: " The EVE market functions because of two things.
Demand the other is the velocity of supply through the market. things getting urp-sploded must be replaced more often, even if the sheer numbers of things built/sold don't change much"

K lets hold the phone right here. What's getting blown up are miners, often new player miners.. you know, those guys that are supplying the raw materials to your manufacturers to meet demand. So it is supply that is affected, the only increase in demand will be on mining ships... maybe, assuming they don't say - C ya. So now's there's a decrease in supply hence an increase in raw material prices..hence an increase in prices for manufactured goods.

"If nothing got blowed-up on a fairly frequent basis, then yes, the price of things would drop."

Ummm no, if miners are not blown up and demand stayed roughly the same, then supply would tend to meet demand and the price would trend to equilibrium. Since we're only talking about a change in demand of mining ships, the real impact isn't this small demand increase but rather the loss of supply of raw minerals with a near steady demand, hence you have a price increase in HS. Which we've seen.

"But it would drop because there was no demand, so who would you sell--or more to the point, who would need to buy from you--all that suddenly cheap-to-build stuff to? "

Ummm no, blowing up mining ships isn't significantly changing your overall demand, it's impacting your supply, creating a scarcity in raw minerals.

"The "supply" side in this game's economy is guaranteed:"

No kidding, yeah I bet those miners can't wait to get out there and get splashed into atoms again.


"And given how much of the player base is in hisec glutting up it's markets, then if you really want to make money as a crafter, then you wouldn't be against ganking--you'd be for the removal of CONCORD even, because that would guarantee maximum consistent demand, and turn-over of stock--that is, freeing up the money you'd invested in same, with profit, to re-invest, and put it to work for you again more quickly."

Well the only way this works is if you have an existing supply (really big supply) of raw materials to build from and take advantage of the higher market prices. Otherwise your screwed as a crafter because you have to buy raw minerals at higher prices, eating into your margins. Can you say 100.00 pu trit? I can certainly see how your plan would put every fledgeling crafter out of business tho.


Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#173 - 2012-07-23 03:46:40 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
K lets hold the phone right here. What's getting blown up are miners, often new player miners.. you know, those guys that are supplying the raw materials to your manufacturers to meet demand. So it is supply that is affected, the only increase in demand will be on mining ships... maybe, assuming they don't say - C ya. So now's there's a decrease in supply hence an increase in raw material prices..hence an increase in prices for manufactured goods.


Look on Battleclinic, bru:

Most kills are still of war-ships, not mining ships. Sui-ganking is actually a fairly small facet of total ship-destruction in EVE, because a lot of people don't want to get locked out of hisec, and go through the grating, /facedesk-inducing NPC (in nullsec, by the way--Onoez, we're skeered!) grind to get it back up. Getting from -8.00 to -1.60 is not fun, believe me. The dedicated "professional" gankers are relatively few, and those typically don't focus on newbies because,

A) A lot--of the ones I know, at least--agree that consistent preying on newbs is pretty lame. (Why, yes. Yes, it is.)

B) There is no profit to be made in ganking the new guy with the mining destroyer or Covetor--both of which are fully insurable, anyway, so no huge loss if not fitted stupidly (that Pithii A-Type SSB is not going to help your Covetor much when those 3 Arty-Thrashers land on grid, just sayin').

The supply of the resource itself is not affected, it's always there, and always will be. And there will always be someone to mine it, the ones that succeed in this are the ones who stick with it, skill up, tank their bloody Hulks (!) and learn to stay aligned between two on-grids whilst webbing each other to keep from drifting out of mining-gun range. There is nothing stopping a newbie mining-op from doing this--as long as they're in a player corporation, NPC "corpies" can't "agress" each other by webbing without CONCORDokken, IIRC--and plenty of knowledge out there to teach them why they should do so.

Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Ummm no, if miners are not blown up and demand stayed roughly the same, then supply would tend to meet demand and the price would trend to equilibrium. Since we're only talking about a change in demand of mining ships, the real impact isn't this small demand increase but rather the loss of supply of raw minerals with a near steady demand, hence you have a price increase in HS. Which we've seen.


The price-increase comes as almost fully a result of CCP's removing Rogue Drone- and meta-0 drops from rats, and before by runaway ISK-faucet generation courtesy of Incursion ISK-farming. These faucets have now been plugged, and the market has self-corrected. It may be that a slight NPC bounty-buff is needed, but only with further loot-nerfs to fully balance it out. Time will tell.

What makes you think mining-ships are the only thing in demand? The demand is clearly being met, just at a different equilibrium point than before, because of the removal of said mineral-faucets, along with bot-bans. This is as it should be. You can make actual money mining again, and have minimal risk if you pay attention, tank your ship, and don't fly stupid-expensive PLEX-fund-baby loot-pinatas (Leave the--tanked!--Hulk for the nice grav-sites in 0.5/0.6).

Any newbie can learn this, the intro-tutorial even says straight out that losing ships is inevitable, and that one therefore shouldn't fly what one can't afford to replace. If a "newbie" is crying because he didn't tank his Hulk, got it smashed into junk, and now can't afford a replacement, then it's no-one's fault his corp's/op-group's leaders for not teaching him why he had no business being in the thing, even if he could board it. Oh, and a qualified Hulk/Mack pilot is not young enough to be a newbie, so he has no excuse there, sorry.

Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Ummm no, blowing up mining ships isn't significantly changing your overall demand, it's impacting your supply, creating a scarcity in raw minerals.


Again, there is no scarcity of supply in EVE. The only difference is the will to go and get it, and someone clearly is doing that--if less available supply, then more people see mining as worth doing, then more minerals come in more quickly from more miners, and the price should re-balance regardless. The ones who stay doing it, are the ones who are attentive and smart, and thus avoid getting ganked in almost all realistic cases.

EVE is harsh, and not exactly newb-friendly--no two ways around it--but there are many ways to work with this for newbies. The onus is on you to learn and make use of them, however, that's the main difference to other "softcore" MMOs.

Sorceror Majiir wrote:
No kidding, yeah I bet those miners can't wait to get out there and get splashed into atoms again.


The ones who adapt, who learn from their losses, and whom, most importantly, realise that it's ultimately just pixels in a dBase, these ones will. And they will be smarter about it, and probably not get ganked next time. And with the ISK/mineral-flooring faucets plugged up, will probably make a fortune in the process.

Adapt, or GTFO.

This has always been the core ethos of EVE, and it's worked just fine for 10 years.

Why should the increased overhead screw you as a crafter? You pass this price on to your customers, whom, as long as they need to replace their ships--not least of all their sui-gank ships--the loss of those is guaranteed, successful gank is not--then they will pay it.

the market will take care of itself. It always has. The community who "get" EVE will step up, and mitigate their risks by being smart about it. It always has.

EVE would not have lasted 10 years, subscriptions would not have only grown year-by-year (exception, the Incarna debacle) if this weren't true.

Working as intended.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.

Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#174 - 2012-07-23 03:46:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Corina Jarr
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Anyway I acknowledge your opinion on it, but so far mine remains the same. o/

- Majiir

Cool, I'm glad we can be pleasant, unlike some folks who disagree.Smile


Also, to explain.

Ships and modules almost always (after equilibrium sets in) sell at just profitable. Most people (traders especially) will not buy a ship that costs significantly more than they themselves could make it.

So, lets say tomorrow, HS became 100% safe.

After a while mineral prices would drop significantly (other than zyn, mega, and morph).

Once that occurs, prices of everything will drop, because everyone wants to sell, and less people would be buying (because of less losses). And people always try to out sell each other (stupid .01 isk games) so the profitability generally stays the same, but the overall amount of income a manufacturer (and trader) would drop drastically.


Also, miners are not the only ones being blown up in HS.
Mission runners.
Indies transporting goods.
Ninja salvagers.
War targets.
Neutral Logis.
Pods.
Gankers who fail.
Silly people who sit on station to take loot from blown up war targets...Oops


Most of these are done via suicide ganks.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#175 - 2012-07-23 03:48:24 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Tarr: " The EVE market functions because of two things.
Demand the other is the velocity of supply through the market. things getting urp-sploded must be replaced more often, even if the sheer numbers of things built/sold don't change much"

K lets hold the phone right here. What's getting blown up are miners, often new player miners.. you know, those guys that are supplying the raw materials to your manufacturers to meet demand. So it is supply that is affected, the only increase in demand will be on mining ships... maybe, assuming they don't say - C ya. So now's there's a decrease in supply hence an increase in raw material prices..hence an increase in prices for manufactured goods.

"If nothing got blowed-up on a fairly frequent basis, then yes, the price of things would drop."

Ummm no, if miners are not blown up and demand stayed roughly the same, then supply would tend to meet demand and the price would trend to equilibrium. Since we're only talking about a change in demand of mining ships, the real impact isn't this small demand increase but rather the loss of supply of raw minerals with a near steady demand, hence you have a price increase in HS. Which we've seen.

"But it would drop because there was no demand, so who would you sell--or more to the point, who would need to buy from you--all that suddenly cheap-to-build stuff to? "

Ummm no, blowing up mining ships isn't significantly changing your overall demand, it's impacting your supply, creating a scarcity in raw minerals.

"The "supply" side in this game's economy is guaranteed:"

No kidding, yeah I bet those miners can't wait to get out there and get splashed into atoms again.


"And given how much of the player base is in hisec glutting up it's markets, then if you really want to make money as a crafter, then you wouldn't be against ganking--you'd be for the removal of CONCORD even, because that would guarantee maximum consistent demand, and turn-over of stock--that is, freeing up the money you'd invested in same, with profit, to re-invest, and put it to work for you again more quickly."

Well the only way this works is if you have an existing supply (really big supply) of raw materials to build from and take advantage of the higher market prices. Otherwise your screwed as a crafter because you have to buy raw minerals at higher prices, eating into your margins. Can you say 100.00 pu trit? I can certainly see how your plan would put every fledgeling crafter out of business tho.


How about the part where mining ships require materials that could otherwise be used to build other ships? It's called opportunity cost, and once you make it to high school I recomend taking economics. It's a real eye opener.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#176 - 2012-07-23 04:45:37 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Tarr: " The EVE market functions because of two things.
Demand the other is the velocity of supply through the market. things getting urp-sploded must be replaced more often, even if the sheer numbers of things built/sold don't change much"

K lets hold the phone right here. What's getting blown up are miners, often new player miners.. you know, those guys that are supplying the raw materials to your manufacturers to meet demand. So it is supply that is affected, the only increase in demand will be on mining ships... maybe, assuming they don't say - C ya. So now's there's a decrease in supply hence an increase in raw material prices..hence an increase in prices for manufactured goods.

"If nothing got blowed-up on a fairly frequent basis, then yes, the price of things would drop."

Ummm no, if miners are not blown up and demand stayed roughly the same, then supply would tend to meet demand and the price would trend to equilibrium. Since we're only talking about a change in demand of mining ships, the real impact isn't this small demand increase but rather the loss of supply of raw minerals with a near steady demand, hence you have a price increase in HS. Which we've seen.

"But it would drop because there was no demand, so who would you sell--or more to the point, who would need to buy from you--all that suddenly cheap-to-build stuff to? "

Ummm no, blowing up mining ships isn't significantly changing your overall demand, it's impacting your supply, creating a scarcity in raw minerals.

"The "supply" side in this game's economy is guaranteed:"

No kidding, yeah I bet those miners can't wait to get out there and get splashed into atoms again.


"And given how much of the player base is in hisec glutting up it's markets, then if you really want to make money as a crafter, then you wouldn't be against ganking--you'd be for the removal of CONCORD even, because that would guarantee maximum consistent demand, and turn-over of stock--that is, freeing up the money you'd invested in same, with profit, to re-invest, and put it to work for you again more quickly."

Well the only way this works is if you have an existing supply (really big supply) of raw materials to build from and take advantage of the higher market prices. Otherwise your screwed as a crafter because you have to buy raw minerals at higher prices, eating into your margins. Can you say 100.00 pu trit? I can certainly see how your plan would put every fledgeling crafter out of business tho.


How about the part where mining ships require materials that could otherwise be used to build other ships? It's called opportunity cost, and once you make it to high school I recomend taking economics. It's a real eye opener.


Oh, for...vOv Building anything in EVE carries opportunity-cost! /o\

Only real opportunity cost though, is time, which you're going to have to commit anyway, and once that build job is started, then it's 100% passive. Train Advanced Mass Production to 4 or 5, and use a same account alt that has at least Mass production to 4 or 5, log/re-log as needed.

These are not huge costs, bru, and certainly absorbable.

When you grow up, then maybe you can re-sub your main and come play EVE the way it's meant to be played again, yes? And stop personally attacking anyone you happen to disagree with?

Sorry, but EVE is not for the emotionally-immature, and CCP is never going to cater to that demographic. They know better.

Next!

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.

Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#177 - 2012-07-23 05:16:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Astroniomix
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
-snip-
It's not anyone I disagree with, its just this one guy REALY bothers me.
Daemon Ceed
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#178 - 2012-07-23 11:16:20 UTC
Genna Illiad wrote:
I don't understand. Why would anyone want to kill a poor, defenseless miner?


Because it's friggen hilarious!

Oh, and for profit...and the 72 virgins. Still waiting on mine. I told them not to ship them via UPS!
Elias Greyhand
#179 - 2012-07-23 18:26:41 UTC
Daemon Ceed wrote:
Genna Illiad wrote:
I don't understand. Why would anyone want to kill a poor, defenseless miner?


Because it's friggen hilarious!

Oh, and for profit...and the 72 virgins. Still waiting on mine. I told them not to ship them via UPS!


I refuse to play the Virgins game.. I'd most likely get men Cry

Also, yes M*A*S*H is one of the best; my box-set of it is the only reason I still vaguely think well of an ex-girlfriend.

"That which is done cannot be undone. But it can be avenged."

Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#180 - 2012-07-23 20:59:00 UTC
Elias Greyhand wrote:
Daemon Ceed wrote:
Genna Illiad wrote:
I don't understand. Why would anyone want to kill a poor, defenseless miner?


Because it's friggen hilarious!

Oh, and for profit...and the 72 virgins. Still waiting on mine. I told them not to ship them via UPS!


I refuse to play the Virgins game.. I'd most likely get men Cry

Also, yes M*A*S*H is one of the best; my box-set of it is the only reason I still vaguely think well of an ex-girlfriend.


Why not?

Suicide is painless, after allBlink

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.