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ASB on Hulks and impact on ganking

Author
warzonetemp
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-07-05 00:59:01 UTC  |  Edited by: warzonetemp
Just had a weird idea,

Hulkageddon is done for this year, but it occurred to me before ASB's were deployed en masse as they are now. What if you fitted your Hulks with ASBs, would it make them harder to gank?

I tried some EFT numbers out and I figured about 12K EHP, with 2.5K in shields. Highs are 3 Tech 2 Mod Strips, Mids 3 ASBs with one empty for heat damage (Overheat in gank situations), and 2 tech 2 Mining upgrades in lows, + 2 MFSE.

Assuming the gankers are doing 300-400 DPS and the miner is not AFK, I think it is theoretically now feasible for a high sec miner to fend off Frigate, Destroyer, and Cruiser sized DPS in high sec in combination with Concord reaction time. If there is no change in dynamic next year, ASB's might kill Hulkageddon due to game dynamics impact.

Anyone else have thoughts about this type of match up.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#2 - 2012-07-05 01:20:27 UTC
Ganking works off of alpha though. A ganker would kill you before you had time to hit the button to start the ASB.
Marcus Ichiro
IchiCorp
#3 - 2012-07-05 02:27:08 UTC
Tanking against ganks is a matter of resists and buffer, not reps. As mxzf said, you'd be dead before your ASB can make any difference.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-07-05 02:49:19 UTC
you dont really get how 'one shoting' works do you?

There is no Bob.

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Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#5 - 2012-07-05 03:21:26 UTC
it might defend against dessy ganks, but as said leaves you wide open to an alpha tornado gank.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Alara IonStorm
#6 - 2012-07-05 03:42:15 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
it might defend against dessy ganks, but as said leaves you wide open to an alpha tornado gank.

1 of Hulk with 2 Invuln Fields would give you the EHP to stave off a single volley in a system where Nado's don't have time to 2 shot and the booster would still rep close to the same with more then enough made in the extra buffer. 3 Reps and no resist boosts is a bit silly.

Everytime I see 1 Caty on a Hulk mail and empty midslots not filled Invuln II which miners have more then enough CPU for and are obviously not using the slot... Well I just don't know what to think.

@ OP Overheat time is not a problem, ganks don't last near long enough to burn out anything.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#7 - 2012-07-05 10:59:56 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
it might defend against dessy ganks, but as said leaves you wide open to an alpha tornado gank.


tornado alpha is below 12k - which is what his ehp was above.

even with quake, vanilla shield resists against exp will reduce it to manageable levels.
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-07-05 17:14:10 UTC
The problem with this is 98% of hulkaggeddon deaths are against afk miners. If you aren't afk you can warp to station before anyone ganks you. But if you are afk you can neither warp away or trigger your ASB.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#9 - 2012-07-05 18:11:40 UTC
Wasn't the plan to redesign all the exhumers to give them each a forte, making any such theorycrafting null and void?
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-07-05 20:29:03 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Wasn't the plan to redesign all the exhumers to give them each a forte, making any such theorycrafting null and void?



Yes, but people will continue to do it until the changes actually happen. Particularly since most people don't understand the proposal, and just whined about the hulk not being the best mining ship anymore.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#11 - 2012-07-05 21:00:07 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Wasn't the plan to redesign all the exhumers to give them each a forte, making any such theorycrafting null and void?



Yes, but people will continue to do it until the changes actually happen. Particularly since most people don't understand the proposal, and just whined about the hulk not being the best mining ship anymore.


Which is especially ironic given that it still will have the highest yield of them and it isn't getting nerfed at all, they're just buffing the rest of the barge hulls.
Tarsus Zateki
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-07-06 00:06:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarsus Zateki
warzonetemp wrote:

Hulkageddon is done for this year...


I guess you missed the part where the Goonswarm Federation has launched permanent Hulkageddon. Every ten hulk kills with verified API postings on Eve-Kill will automatically get you 100 million ISK. You don't even need to do anything other than kill hulks. The money will just appear in your wallet a few hours after your ten kills. This emergent game play program is projected to keep running as long as we continue having more money than god. There's also Junior League Hulkageddon; every ten regular barge kills will get you 10 million ISK! This will also go on effectively forever and you get your reward the same way.

As for ASBs; they will probably prevent a small group of Catalysts from blapping your hulk. They won't do a damn thing to stop a Tornado from one shotting you. Even though an ASB will likely stop destroyers from taking you out, the fact that no miner is ever actually playing the game, means the ASB will never get activated.

Edit: The planned barge overhaul is awesome and I can't wait to see Hulks continuing to die in large numbers because no one is going to sacrifice yield for survivability. They don't now, they won't then.

You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.

warzonetemp
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-07-06 02:40:23 UTC
As I said, Frigates, destroyers, and cruisers DPS in most situation in high sec. At 12K EHP, I think it can stop most small ship alpha, but as the GF guy said, I wasn't thinking of it going up against a Nado or BC's fitted for alpha. 12K EHP though would prevent most Alpha from killing you and if I dropped on ASB for Invul II or two ASB's for 2 invul II, the EHP rises higher than BC alpha can take you out in one shot theoretically.

However, I am basing this on my own skills. Most miners are not as skilled on shields and armor, so the point is correct that this type of idea is impractical if the player doesn't divert game time to survivability skill training deep into shield tanks (Kind of makes you wonder why they aren't flying Rokhs if that's the case, then branch off to be rail snipers :P ).

The Hulk's Mid slots need some love and ASB's are now the bad boy of small fleet PvP, so why not have some fun playing with fits for them on hulks. A burst tank with overload might keep some miners alive.

PS: I didn't know about the GF continuous Hulkageddon, why don't you guys market it better like your burn Jita Campaign (Thanks by the way, I made a fortune as that coincided with the pre-launch of the tech 2 Drone Damage Amplifier mods, which caused great instability in drone item markets throughout the entire campaign. Can you guys do a Burn Rens, Dodixie, and Amarr simultaneously with Jita next time, so I can have more hubs to play with?)
Tarsus Zateki
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-07-06 03:29:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarsus Zateki
warzonetemp wrote:

However, I am basing this on my own skills. Most miners are not as skilled on shields and armor, so the point is correct that this type of idea is impractical if the player doesn't divert game time to survivability skill training deep into shield tanks (Kind of makes you wonder why they aren't flying Rokhs if that's the case, then branch off to be rail snipers :P ).


You have the correct mind set and would likely be a person who is difficult to suicide gank. The problem is that the vast, vast majority of miners are either not tabbed into the game at all or are actually robots. Fitting a module like the ASB would be a pretty good way to prevent a good number of suicide ganks but a player needs to actually be present at their keyboard to turn it on.

Same deal with using mining Rokhs. Their yield isn't that much worse than a Hulk and they are nearly impossible to effectively suicide gank but that small percentage reduction in yield is enough for most imbeciles to continue flying tissue paper ships. The more amusing delusional miners are those who feel that that small percentage increase in yield is covering the cost of their ganked hulks.

Mining Barges are getting a large overhaul in the winter expansion with the small one having the effective tank of a battleship but low yield, the mid range having a massive cargo hold and middling tank and the big one having huge yield, middling cargo and tissue paper tank. This applies to both the T1 & T2 models. A new sort of ORE mining frigate will also be introduced as a stepping stone into specialized mining ships and to replace the various mining racial frigates which are getting revamped for combat.

Its a pretty nice series of changes that unfortunately doesn't fix the easily automated nature of mining. And the incredibly boring game play of mining which makes automating it so appealing.

You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.

Frances
MANPENIS
#15 - 2012-07-06 05:05:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Frances
Tarsus Zateki wrote:

Its a pretty nice series of changes that unfortunately doesn't fix the easily automated nature of mining. And the incredibly boring game play of mining which makes automating it so appealing.



That is the most important post of the thread. Botting is pretty much inevitable for these reasons.


I don't know if it can be fixed TBH. When I played Earth and Beyond, mining had a chance to cause enemies appear and try to kick your ass. Maybe something like that could be implemented, it would certainly make people fit a tank and perhaps add a touch of excitement to mining.
Arnst Atram
Downgraded Avengers
Hard Knocks Citizens
#16 - 2012-07-06 14:56:04 UTC
Frances wrote:

That is the most important post of the thread. Botting is pretty much inevitable for these reasons.


Botting is pretty much inevitable regardless of any reasons. It's simple and makes money, therefore there will always be people trying to bot it no matter how fun it is or isn't.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#17 - 2012-07-06 17:08:19 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
you dont really get how 'one shoting' works do you?

People aren't one-shotting Hulks when they're doing it for HG rewards, since you lose 10x your payment in lost tornados.

OP's suggestion isn't terrible, but the best defense is to learn DScan and simply be gone when the ganker arrives.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#18 - 2012-07-07 08:06:59 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
it might defend against dessy ganks, but as said leaves you wide open to an alpha tornado gank.


tornado alpha is below 12k - which is what his ehp was above.

even with quake, vanilla shield resists against exp will reduce it to manageable levels.


with no resist mods (as seen in the op) hulk has 9.2k ehp to rf emp. and his 2 MFSE. I think were supposed to be shield hp rigs which bump the hulk up to 10.2k ehp to rf emp. a tornado can beat those numbers.

also nothing stopping you from using 2 rounds rf emp, and 6 quake (and hit those exp/kin holes in armor!).

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#19 - 2012-07-07 13:58:10 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
it might defend against dessy ganks, but as said leaves you wide open to an alpha tornado gank.


tornado alpha is below 12k - which is what his ehp was above.

even with quake, vanilla shield resists against exp will reduce it to manageable levels.


with no resist mods (as seen in the op) hulk has 9.2k ehp to rf emp. and his 2 MFSE. I think were supposed to be shield hp rigs which bump the hulk up to 10.2k ehp to rf emp. a tornado can beat those numbers.

also nothing stopping you from using 2 rounds rf emp, and 6 quake (and hit those exp/kin holes in armor!).

You don't want to be using Quake, since that needs T2 guns which are prohibitively expensive.

On your average 1xinvuln small boosted hulk you want to fire 5 guns loaded with EMP, wait for them to connect, then fire 3 guns loaded with Fusion.

Punching the EM then explosive holes in this way makes your effective damage about 2k ehp higher than if you shot one damage type and actually means the EHP shown on a hulk fit in EFT will be higher than it is to your guns.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Unit757
North Point
#20 - 2012-07-07 15:12:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Unit757
Although I very rarely touch a mining barge now, I can tell you by reading other posts on the forums that any form of shield booster is essentially useless in defending against a gank. You are far better off fitting the ship for the maximum amount of buffer, which with good skills (most miners don't seem to have) you can squeeze almost 30K or more EHP out of them, which is more then enough to deter your average ganker.

This max yield BS is just that, BS. It works the same way if you take an armageddon and stack 7 mega pulses and fill its lows with damage mods, and then try and go fight with it, It's the same idea thats been used with these hulks. You'll live longer, and you'll see MORE yield over time from a fully tanked hulk, compared to an untanked one.

Miners need to understand the basics of this game. It is a non-consensual PVP based game. There is no AFK income, and there never will be. If you worked in the mines in real life, would you turn on the drill and walk away and leave it on its own? No. If your not willing to stay there with your ship while it works, you don't deserve to own that ship, and you don't deserve the income it produces. Thankfully those at Goonswarm are encouraging people to be the ones to take that away from you.

I will be there the day these barge changes hit TQ. And I will be one of the first people to laugh at the moron who loses a skiff to a single catalyst, because it's going to happen.
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