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Bring back L5 missions to high-sec, please!
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Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#61 - 2012-07-08 14:27:21 UTC
Baron Deathicon wrote:
Let's face it, no one has anything to lose with this, while some of us could have a bit more fun.


Why don't we just make a separate pve server where you can be content to your heart's delight?
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#62 - 2012-07-08 14:28:53 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Baron Deathicon wrote:
Let's face it, no one has anything to lose with this, while some of us could have a bit more fun.


Why don't we just make a separate pve server where you can be content to your heart's delight?

We already have separate servers for them, located here, some of them just seem to be a little slow in leaving.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Byrrssa Crendraven
Anti - Social
#63 - 2012-07-08 15:26:05 UTC
Another option could be -

Add a level of difficulty to the mission. So, while you're getting ready to accept the mission, you could accept normal difficulty, hard difficulty, and insano difficulty. I would think hard difficulty would give you 1.5x normal difficulties rewards and a little better chance at a pretty faction piece where insano would give you 2x the rewards with 2x the possibility of getting a shiny faction piece. You're not guaranteed a faction piece...but, you'd have a better chance at the insane level.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#64 - 2012-07-08 15:37:53 UTC
I should have called this character Cassandra:

Simi Kusoni wrote:
As for the OP, and allowing them back in high sec, you may say rewards don't interest you. You may even be telling the truth. But would you be willing to nerf level fours, so level fives could take their place? Because if you did that solo/newer players would whine.

But if you introduce lvl5s into high sec at the same isk/hour as lvl4s, again people whine. Whatever way you look at it, it would just end up another high sec buff. And you can't nerf other high sec activities to fit in, because people whine, and you can't buff low/null even more to keep it balanced because it would just total the economy.


Byrrssa Crendraven wrote:
I would think hard difficulty would give you 1.5x normal difficulties rewards and a little better chance at a pretty faction piece where insano would give you 2x the rewards with 2x the possibility of getting a shiny faction piece. You're not guaranteed a faction piece...but, you'd have a better chance at the insane level.


Ruareve wrote:
I'd like to see 5's in high sec as well, I'd like the challenge, but I also can't see running them for long if they pay the same as lvl 4's. Take on more risk with tougher mission then there should be a higher reward

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Sephiroth CloneIIV
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#65 - 2012-07-08 17:32:48 UTC
what about incursions, they fill the nich of toughest content that can occur in highsec that actually requires group play.

Instead of bringing back level 5s why not have more incursions of other factions.
Baron Deathicon
Outerspace Vanguard
#66 - 2012-07-08 17:35:42 UTC
Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote:
what about incursions, they fill the nich of toughest content that can occur in highsec that actually requires group play.

Instead of bringing back level 5s why not have more incursions of other factions.


Because I find missions to be more adapted to my location of choice and play style than incursions. I can choose when I pick them up, they aren't dictated by the server. But sure, incursions of other factions would be nice.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#67 - 2012-07-08 20:06:01 UTC
Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote:
what about incursions, they fill the nich of toughest content that can occur in highsec that actually requires group play.

Instead of bringing back level 5s why not have more incursions of other factions.


High Sec Incursions as they are now should be removed from the game, not expanded upon.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#68 - 2012-07-08 20:24:09 UTC
Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote:
what about incursions, they fill the nich of toughest content that can occur in highsec that actually requires group play.

Instead of bringing back level 5s why not have more incursions of other factions.


People that want level 5s in high sec are 100% risk averse and 100% friend averse. They want eve to be a single player game they can come home to and shoot red crosses until bed time, alone, without any interruption

basically, they don't "get" eve and they should probably find another game to play
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#69 - 2012-07-08 21:12:59 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Viceran Phaedra wrote:
(...)

Personally, I enjoy pushing my ship to the limits of efficiency and seeing how effective I can be at mission-running, and I enjoy the scenarios (destroy/rescue etc) and fighting against different factions. The ISK I make is a byproduct of this, that, over time, allows me to further enhance my ship's mission-running capabilities. This, I enjoy, and forms a large part of my sandbox time.

I also don't want to have to start all over again if I can avoid it, by losing said ship (and mods I've worked hard for) to some gypsy f*ckwit l33t low sec pilot who thinks that a pretend killmail for a pretend pixelship actually makes him special. (...)


You summarized what kept me going for some 2 years. But I can't convince myself to go for a multi-billion pimpmobile... I've written in fire into my mind the words of a guy who lost a 7 billion Paladin in 30 seconds. Ugh

You cling to risk aversion in a pretend spaceship game like its somehow a virtue.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Baron Deathicon
Outerspace Vanguard
#70 - 2012-07-08 22:51:52 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote:
what about incursions, they fill the nich of toughest content that can occur in highsec that actually requires group play.

Instead of bringing back level 5s why not have more incursions of other factions.


People that want level 5s in high sec are 100% risk averse and 100% friend averse. They want eve to be a single player game they can come home to and shoot red crosses until bed time, alone, without any interruption

basically, they don't "get" eve and they should probably find another game to play


You are just repeating what others said in this thread, that doesn't bring anything valuable to this discussion. Move along.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#71 - 2012-07-08 23:04:14 UTC
Baron Deathicon wrote:
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote:
what about incursions, they fill the nich of toughest content that can occur in highsec that actually requires group play.

Instead of bringing back level 5s why not have more incursions of other factions.


People that want level 5s in high sec are 100% risk averse and 100% friend averse. They want eve to be a single player game they can come home to and shoot red crosses until bed time, alone, without any interruption

basically, they don't "get" eve and they should probably find another game to play


You are just repeating what others said in this thread, that doesn't bring anything valuable to this discussion. Move along.

Blindly repeating that you want level fives whilst ignoring the issues raised with the proposal is just as unconstructive.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Baron Deathicon
Outerspace Vanguard
#72 - 2012-07-09 01:30:54 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Baron Deathicon wrote:
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote:
what about incursions, they fill the nich of toughest content that can occur in highsec that actually requires group play.

Instead of bringing back level 5s why not have more incursions of other factions.


People that want level 5s in high sec are 100% risk averse and 100% friend averse. They want eve to be a single player game they can come home to and shoot red crosses until bed time, alone, without any interruption

basically, they don't "get" eve and they should probably find another game to play


You are just repeating what others said in this thread, that doesn't bring anything valuable to this discussion. Move along.

Blindly repeating that you want level fives whilst ignoring the issues raised with the proposal is just as unconstructive.


You got that reversed. You're not bringing up any issues, you are just bitching instead of explaining why it would be a bad thing to have the choice of where we want to run missions, level 5 specifically. And don't brag about risk versus reward again, I already voiced my opinion about it, it is not an actual issue.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#73 - 2012-07-09 01:56:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Baron Deathicon wrote:
You got that reversed. You're not bringing up any issues, you are just bitching instead of explaining why it would be a bad thing to have the choice of where we want to run missions, level 5 specifically. And don't brag about risk versus reward again, I already voiced my opinion about it, it is not an actual issue.

As you can see in my original post, I brought up the fact that introducing level fives at the same isk/hour as level fours will bring opposition from high sec bears. Introduce level fives at identical isk/hour and people won't be happy, they will complain. And they will complain endlessly.

I also pointed out that you cannot nerf level fours, and replace them with level fives at the old lvl4 rate of ISK/hour, because again high sec players will complain endlessly about losing their bottable solo-able income stream.

I then briefly touched on the issues with balancing level fours as a group activity, when high sec players are liable to blitz them in inappropriately expensive ships due to the complete safety of high sec. I also touch on that issue again briefly later when someone makes the more sensible suggestion of simply making NPCs tougher in general.

I have not once bragged about risk/reward, and my initial two concerns have already been validated as can be seen here.

You have done nothing to address any of the issues with your proposal, neither the ones raised by me or all the other posters. In fact glancing at your posts throughout this thread you have just repeated that you want level fives numerous times.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Ruareve
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-07-09 03:38:49 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

As you can see in my original post, I brought up the fact that introducing level fives at the same isk/hour as level fours will bring opposition from high sec bears. Introduce level fives at identical isk/hour and people won't be happy, they will complain. And they will complain endlessly.

I also pointed out that you cannot nerf level fours, and replace them with level fives at the old lvl4 rate of ISK/hour, because again high sec players will complain endlessly about losing their bottable solo-able income stream.

I then briefly touched on the issues with balancing level fours as a group activity, when high sec players are liable to blitz them in inappropriately expensive ships due to the complete safety of high sec. I also touch on that issue again briefly later when someone makes the more sensible suggestion of simply making NPCs tougher in general.

I have not once bragged about risk/reward, and my initial two concerns have already been validated as can be seen here.

You have done nothing to address any of the issues with your proposal, neither the ones raised by me or all the other posters. In fact glancing at your posts throughout this thread you have just repeated that you want level fives numerous times.


Why should a lvl 5 difficutly mission pay out the same amount as a lvl 4? The risk is higher so the reward should be higher.

Lvl 4's are fine as they are, great for solo in strong ship or small group in lesser ships.

Group activities can be either incursions with long prep/setup times and an average of about 4hrs to complete or lvl 5's which are simpler and should need only about 2hrs to complete. There is no need to adjust lvl 4's for groups.


Your initial concerns are not valid, they are straw man arguments you tend to use to pull away from the core of the discussion.

Having lvl 5's in high sec in no way hurts the game as long as the payouts are less then what is achievable in lo sec. More content, more options. As I stated before the hi sec version should have a different payout inline with other missions in hi sec so that bounties, salvage and a few LP's are the main return whereas lo sec 5's tend to have high amounts of LP payout.

The only counter argument put forth to the logic behind having 5's in hi sec has been "EVE is meant to be tough and hi sec is too easy as it is" which is simply an opinion and is just as valid as the opinion that "there should be more mission options to include lvl 5's in hi sec."

On the one hand there is the idea that EVE should remain stagnant as a hardcore PVP game with a small player base and on the other hand is the idea that EVE should adapt to the market becoming more moderate by appealing to the broader player base that enjoys PVE.

The game has plenty of room to cater to both PVE and PVP play styles but so far the devs are clinging to the hardcore mentality even though it's costing them money. With the past years changes to CCP's PR image I think the concept of HTFU will be toned down. When DUST 514 fails to pull in the customer base that's expected CCP will have to make EVE more appealing to remain competitive.

EVE is a great game with a lot of potential, but the constant bashing of people that aren't hardcore PVP fans has driven away a good chunk of the online community, created a bad reputation, and limited revenue. Maybe the dev's are content to keep their game tucked in a corner and push money away, but I bet the investors will eventually get tired of the shenanigans and demand a change to bring in higher profits.

Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/
Viceran Phaedra
Instar Heavy Industries
#75 - 2012-07-09 05:11:09 UTC
Byrrssa Crendraven wrote:
Another option could be -

Add a level of difficulty to the mission. So, while you're getting ready to accept the mission, you could accept normal difficulty, hard difficulty, and insano difficulty. I would think hard difficulty would give you 1.5x normal difficulties rewards and a little better chance at a pretty faction piece where insano would give you 2x the rewards with 2x the possibility of getting a shiny faction piece. You're not guaranteed a faction piece...but, you'd have a better chance at the insane level.

This is one of the best ideas I've read all thread.

+1

Chief Executive Officer

Instar Heavy Industries
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#76 - 2012-07-09 05:12:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Xorv
Baron Deathicon wrote:

You are just repeating what others said in this thread, that doesn't bring anything valuable to this discussion. Move along.


The only vaguely unique part of your argument is that you want more "challenging" PvE in Highsec, but don't care about the rewards. Well great, but unfortunately you just wandered in between the trenches of the Risk vs Reward debate, Themepark vs Sandbox, High vs Null debate, and probably a whole lot more. Just because Baron Deathicon doesn't care about rewards isn't going to make it ok putting that content back in Highsec, when everyone knows the expectation of most of the others wanting that change is that it comes with a great reward.

If there was actually a demand for "challenging PvE" without high rewards Highsec Incursions wouldn't have seen the drop in participation it did after a rather minor income nerf. There's nothing valuable in this thread to begin with we should all move along.


Look your thread has even spawned this idiocy...

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

No amount of incentive will convince anyone to go beyond his risk threshold. Failure to understand this is one fo the reasons why CCP wastes endless amounts of effort trying to keep 15% of the players content while 75% of them eventually grow bored and quit just because there's not enough stuff to do within their risk threshold, [...]


If the only support your argument has is from posters that pull statistics straight from their anus you know you're probably on the wrong side of the debate.
Signal11th
#77 - 2012-07-09 07:46:37 UTC
As someone who has done level 5's in high sec and now in low-sec all I can say is there isn't any really difference apart from you have to be a bit more aware.

The only difference is now you can get killed and you can't afk a mission anymore. I think if memory serves me right that lvl 5's were never supossed to be in high-sec but a bug enabled it to happen???

lvl 4's are for high-sec lvl 5's are for low-sec, you want the reward you have to take the risk and so far when I was doing it I did 40 odd lvl 5's and only once did someone try to probe me down.

Plus you talk about participation of friends, well get them along as guards and problem solved. This just really stinks of I want to rat in peace and buy shiny shite with no bother.

You can still do lvl 5's I don't see why it needs to be in high sec for you to do them?

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#78 - 2012-07-09 07:51:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Ruareve wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

As you can see in my original post, I brought up the fact that introducing level fives at the same isk/hour as level fours will bring opposition from high sec bears. Introduce level fives at identical isk/hour and people won't be happy, they will complain. And they will complain endlessly.

I also pointed out that you cannot nerf level fours, and replace them with level fives at the old lvl4 rate of ISK/hour, because again high sec players will complain endlessly about losing their bottable solo-able income stream.

I then briefly touched on the issues with balancing level fours as a group activity, when high sec players are liable to blitz them in inappropriately expensive ships due to the complete safety of high sec. I also touch on that issue again briefly later when someone makes the more sensible suggestion of simply making NPCs tougher in general.

I have not once bragged about risk/reward, and my initial two concerns have already been validated as can be seen here.

You have done nothing to address any of the issues with your proposal, neither the ones raised by me or all the other posters. In fact glancing at your posts throughout this thread you have just repeated that you want level fives numerous times.

Drivel whining about how you want more ISK.

No.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Ruareve
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-07-09 08:25:48 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Ruareve wrote:

Drivel whining about how you want more ISK.

No.



Creating another straw-man without providing anything to the argument.

Yes

Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#80 - 2012-07-09 08:41:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Byrrssa Crendraven wrote:
Another option could be -

Add a level of difficulty to the mission. So, while you're getting ready to accept the mission, you could accept normal difficulty, hard difficulty, and insano difficulty. I would think hard difficulty would give you 1.5x normal difficulties rewards and a little better chance at a pretty faction piece where insano would give you 2x the rewards with 2x the possibility of getting a shiny faction piece. You're not guaranteed a faction piece...but, you'd have a better chance at the insane level.



the idea is to get people out of empire. High risk and/or high pita factor (dealing with unwanted cta's in the blob or safing up when roams are in the area, probing/d-scaning in wh's constantly) high payouts the reward.

This is why level 5 was moved. TAke one alt/friend/corpy in a tanky ship (the aggro tank basically....rattler a good choice) one damage dealer. Maybe a 3rd logi support. And......wipe the mission. Thats how empire lv 5's worked. The "hardest" part of level 5 was getting the mission. That required training inties and burning past low sec gate camps to get to agents. Or sb's to get off gates ninjya style.

The real money is out of empire because in theory those out of empire will not accrue trillions of isk in record time. They have living expenses like ship losses tgat can be frqeuent. I made 1 billion isk in 0.0 in less than 10 minutes with an officer spawn before they got harder. \o/ for me. 3 weeks later, a rokh, hac and several drakes blown up later...burned a few isk of that up.

Even your insane missions would be isk farms in empire just like level 5 was. I have a half assed cap alt on ice trained for logi leading to triage carrier. Flies a mean logi. Spins and rotate damage dealer and hello isk printing press. Also a fleet booster, mix with shinies and bonus city.