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[Proposal] Capital Mining Barge

Author
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-07-01 07:05:59 UTC
A ship that mines much faster than a hulk but can't be used in highsec. Requires strategy in mining because it's a lot of value to lose. I think it makes a fair bit of sense, and helps take the mining potential out of botter/AFKer hands and back into player hands. What do you guys think?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#2 - 2012-07-01 07:14:39 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I think it makes a fair bit of sense, and helps take the mining potential out of botter/AFKer hands

And that's where it stopped making sense...

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-07-01 07:42:10 UTC
Why? You think botters and AFKers should be making the most mining income?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2012-07-01 07:59:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Why? You think botters and AFKers should be making the most mining income?

No. But if you create ships that can pull in more ore than now then supply will rise and make mineral prices drop. And AFKers and botters will STILL make more ISK than active players because they can pull in the volume necessary to make a pretty penny.

Besides... which people are most likely to use these types of ships? Because I'll bet hard ISK it won't be solo or small scale miners. I can see mega alliances using them en mass deep in their territories where no one can reach them.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2012-07-01 11:41:01 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Why? You think botters and AFKers should be making the most mining income?



Please explain to us how you will prevent this ship from being used by bots? If you cannot do so, then it will be putting more money INTO the hands of botters.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-07-01 12:05:39 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Why? You think botters and AFKers should be making the most mining income?



Please explain to us how you will prevent this ship from being used by bots? If you cannot do so, then it will be putting more money INTO the hands of botters.

I thought I mentioned it's a capital ship, and can't be used in highsec. That eliminates like 90% of botters right there. If it's not in highsec and the person using it is AFK, they can be easily attacked.

My god you people are slow.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Eidric
Private Shelter for Mad People
#7 - 2012-07-01 17:56:05 UTC
1. There are bots in null sec. (Gasp!)

2. Some nullsec is even safer for botting, than highsec

3. This will devalue the mineral market. As such all new players will be earning pittance in their first mining ships, or even in barges. Why do you want to nerf mining is beyond me.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-07-01 20:37:37 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Besides... which people are most likely to use these types of ships? Because I'll bet hard ISK it won't be solo or small scale miners. I can see mega alliances using them en mass deep in their territories where no one can reach them.

Why exactly is that a bad thing?
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-07-01 20:38:46 UTC
Eidric wrote:
1. There are bots in null sec. (Gasp!)

2. Some nullsec is even safer for botting, than highsec

Sorry there were more bots found in The Forge then all of nullsec combined according to the Fanfest 2012 security panel. The follow up 12 regions were all also highsec areas.

hth
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2012-07-02 00:31:26 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Why? You think botters and AFKers should be making the most mining income?



Please explain to us how you will prevent this ship from being used by bots? If you cannot do so, then it will be putting more money INTO the hands of botters.

I thought I mentioned it's a capital ship, and can't be used in highsec. That eliminates like 90% of botters right there. If it's not in highsec and the person using it is AFK, they can be easily attacked.

My god you people are slow.



Place a bot into this. In deep nullsec. With scouts around. Ship safes up and cloaks if a red gets close. Just like bots do these days anyway.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-07-02 01:22:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I think the game economy speaks for itself. You can claim that nullsec COULD be botted all you want, or spread rumors about the large number of bots out there, but a trip out there will tell you a lot more. Mining anywhere in nullsec requires a pretty decent amount of protection. For one thing, you can't just safe up every time a non-blue enters the system in many places, at least, because there will be constant non-blue traffic through the system all day if it doesn't have an active gate camp. Also, if a Covetor or Hulk cannot always enter warp faster than an interceptor can enter system and point them, what makes you think a capital ship can?

All-in-all, it's just way more productive to bot-mine veldspar in highsec than the expensive ores in nullsec.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#12 - 2012-07-02 14:35:17 UTC
Adding high-level ships that will increase yield-per-character for botters is a bad thing.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#13 - 2012-07-02 14:39:35 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I think the game economy speaks for itself. You can claim that nullsec COULD be botted all you want, or spread rumors about the large number of bots out there, but a trip out there will tell you a lot more. Mining anywhere in nullsec requires a pretty decent amount of protection. For one thing, you can't just safe up every time a non-blue enters the system in many places, at least, because there will be constant non-blue traffic through the system all day if it doesn't have an active gate camp. Also, if a Covetor or Hulk cannot always enter warp faster than an interceptor can enter system and point them, what makes you think a capital ship can?

All-in-all, it's just way more productive to bot-mine veldspar in highsec than the expensive ores in nullsec.


You obviously never saw the drone space ratting bots in action if you think botting in null requires intensive security.

edit: if the yield were significant enough, it would be feasible to park the miner well away from the warp-in point for the belt and simply have it stop mining and cloak when a non-blue enters the system.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Kahn Soomer
Beverage Production and Consumption
#14 - 2012-07-02 18:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahn Soomer
One thing often missing from Null Sec production chains is the basic ore, unless it's imported from JITA through a complicated nonsensical process of building the base ore into stuff, transporting the stuff to Null, and then recycling the stuff in null sec back into tritanium, etc.

Why do I mention this need for low ends in null sec, particularly for the stupidly expensive supercaps?

Because the capital mining ship could be limited to fast and efficient mining of these scarce low end ores.

Focusing the mining capital ship on low ends in null sec would help to meet an established "need", possibly reduce the need for a kind of stupid workaround, and also save the "high ends" for more conventional miners and ships.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#15 - 2012-07-03 01:21:38 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Mining anywhere in nullsec requires a pretty decent amount of protection.

If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you. Mint condition.

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword

sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-07-03 03:29:06 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Eidric wrote:
1. There are bots in null sec. (Gasp!)

2. Some nullsec is even safer for botting, than highsec

Sorry there were more bots found in The Forge then all of nullsec combined according to the Fanfest 2012 security panel. The follow up 12 regions were all also highsec areas.

hth


Isn't it obvious? Alliance (like yours) bots don't count as bots. Semi-afk highsec miners count as bots.Lol

Since drone alloy nerf hardly affected minerial prices at all, it's all the more proof there are fewer bots there than in highsec, right?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-07-03 20:23:17 UTC
Kahn Soomer wrote:
One thing often missing from Null Sec production chains is the basic ore, unless it's imported from JITA through a complicated nonsensical process of building the base ore into stuff, transporting the stuff to Null, and then recycling the stuff in null sec back into tritanium, etc.

Why do I mention this need for low ends in null sec, particularly for the stupidly expensive supercaps?

Because the capital mining ship could be limited to fast and efficient mining of these scarce low end ores.

Focusing the mining capital ship on low ends in null sec would help to meet an established "need", possibly reduce the need for a kind of stupid workaround, and also save the "high ends" for more conventional miners and ships.

I completely agree with this. Consider the effects it would have. If you have too little understanding of macroeconomics to get what I'm saying, please save us all the trouble, and just don't comment:

Megacyte and Zydrine costs in nullsec would go down substantially, and if the capital mining ship were able to mine all ores equally, then nullsec production workers could make stuff much more easily, and avoid the horrendous logistical nightmare of transporting ore from highsec.

Highsec mineral prices might go down, simply because nullsec won't be purchasing from highsec. It won't have anything to do with nullsec selling to highsec.
Let me make this implicitly clear:
Nullsec does not want your ISK. They don't have any use for it if they don't have to buy anything from you.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-07-03 21:09:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
sabre906 wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Eidric wrote:
1. There are bots in null sec. (Gasp!)

2. Some nullsec is even safer for botting, than highsec

Sorry there were more bots found in The Forge then all of nullsec combined according to the Fanfest 2012 security panel. The follow up 12 regions were all also highsec areas.

hth


Isn't it obvious? Alliance (like yours) bots don't count as bots. Semi-afk highsec miners count as bots.Lol

Since drone alloy nerf hardly affected minerial prices at all, it's all the more proof there are fewer bots there than in highsec, right?


Affirmative Conclusion From a Negative Premise

Three times in two sentences, wow.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-07-03 21:15:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
sabre906 wrote:
Isn't it obvious? Alliance (like yours) bots don't count as bots. Semi-afk highsec miners count as bots.Lol

Since drone alloy nerf hardly affected minerial prices at all, it's all the more proof there are fewer bots there than in highsec, right?

I think the reason removing drone minerals and tech 1 modules didn't affect mineral prices much is because people generally didn't bother scooping up that crap since it didn't sell very well anyway. I'm sure there were people who ratted in the drone regions and scooped it all up, but ratting bounty NPCs has always been more popular.

However, if mineral prices had gone up high enough and gunmining had been left in, it would have become profitable, and would have prevented the value of minerals from rising as far as they could rise.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-07-03 21:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

I think the reason removing drone minerals and tech 1 modules didn't affect mineral prices much is because people generally didn't bother scooping up that crap since it didn't sell very well anyway. I'm sure there were people who ratted in the drone regions and scooped it all up, but ratting bounty NPCs has always been more popular.

Drones didn't give bounties pre-"nerf" - the only reward generated was by the drone compound drops in their wrecks, which when reprocessed gave the equivalent value of a bounty in minerals. This had vast implications on the economy of EVE, because no matter how much pure currency (ISK) was generated from ratting and injected into the game, the supply of goods being created would still be capped by the amount of minerals available, and that was capped by by the max yield of a bonused Hulk. In other words, even if you had trillions of ISK, you couldn't just buy a titan fleet instantly and steamroll space - people had to sit in hulks and mine for X-thousand of manhours to make it possible, you couldn't just pour your raw isk into a CSAA. The end effect was a semblance of balance between isk generation and commodity generation: too much isk floating around and mudflation would make it more worthwhile to mine instead.

What gunmining did was remove that cap - the system was balanced around the idea that gunmining in a moderately expensive ratting ship would match the same output as a Hulk. This system was broken when people started gunmining in faction ships, marauders and carriers. It became obliterated when the drone compound minerals were reinvested into supercarriers and titans that in turn singlehandedly dwarfed mining fleets in yield, yield to create more gunmining supercaps and titans (not 'bots'). The end losers in this scenario were miners everywhere else, as resource generation in this manner crushed all other forms of mineral creation as well as nullsec, as the drone regions' mineral output introduced a supercaps arms race that otherwise would not be possible simply due to lack of available resoures.
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