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Two serious questions for the "Highsec Carebear"
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#821 - 2012-07-08 13:18:10 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
What makes you think that logi, those ecm drones or maybe that high alpha/dps ship doesn't safe the Hulk if gankers show up?
Again, you're confusing yourself with other people.
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#822 - 2012-07-08 13:50:54 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
You say it can be tanked to make profitable ganking impossible. Two T1 gank fit Catalysts can destroy it in 0.5 even whit maximum tank (15k EHP).


The Current Hulk (which is the only one we have numbers for) maxes at 36k vs Blasters, not 15k..

Actually, an anti-blaster Hulk fit (with maximum tank) can go up to 43k EHP with overheat. Just sayin.


I'm assuming T2/Meta, no Fleet and keeping enough tank vs EM and Exp to survive 2 Nado volleys, if your fit fits that bill, I'd love it if you posted it. I must be doing something wrong (or getting my head muddled by the head injury Jorma's taken).

It's a Gist-B fit, so yeah, not as cheap as the T2 fit Hulk, but the mods are not that expensive either imo. But no, it won't survive 2 max skilled nado volleys while standing still, iirc it has 27k EHP against EMP, 24k against Fusion, so It's not practical.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#823 - 2012-07-08 14:19:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Again, you're confusing yourself with other people.


Nope.

I've never said untanked Hulk can't be ganked.
I've never said tanked, solo Hulk can't be ganked.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#824 - 2012-07-08 14:27:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Again, you're confusing yourself with other people.
Nope.
Sure you are. You are asking others why they don't think what they do think (or think what they don't), when you're the one who doesn't and does think so, respectively.
Pipa Porto
#825 - 2012-07-08 18:24:58 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
You're confusing yourself with other people again. You're getting worse — seek medical attention.


What makes you think that logi, those ecm drones or maybe that high alpha/dps ship doesn't safe the Hulk if gankers show up?


Glad you finally agree with us.

Logi, ECM Drones, Tank, and/or Combat backup can easily save a Hulk from any cost effective gank.

Glad you're finally on board.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#826 - 2012-07-08 18:25:21 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Again, you're confusing yourself with other people.


Nope.

I've never said untanked Hulk can't be ganked.
I've never said tanked, solo Hulk can't be ganked.


Neither has anybody else.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#827 - 2012-07-21 16:26:54 UTC
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
Amazing how this thread went from "how much should you make" to "how safe should you be".

Again, one answers the other. The one who makes himself safest should make the most ISK.


But you can't forget to factor in potential risk and potential reward. It's a bit like factoring-in the possibility of ECM while pvping.
darkenspace
Imperial AMARR White Kights
#828 - 2012-07-22 06:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: darkenspace
well i have to say it when i was a new player was like 60,000 players on line most of the time all this was said back then too
now most of the time 25.000 to 35.000 at times any way you cut it players are not going to give you money to feed them to gankers in a game this old no one cares if you fix the game for more players to play are not .
they might sub and play if its fun if not no big deal i have to say it i told you so pve is big money .
upside is every 8 months i see what the game is up to so in 16 months only cost me $30.00
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#829 - 2012-07-22 06:52:15 UTC
Well I don't have an answer for question 2, though I have been alone in nullsec for months now and not sure if that's "carebear" enough.

For question 1, I would have to say Live Events. In a live event, I don't care what I lose. Live Events are that epic.

Losing ships in the usual "bubbleblob/gank" routine that I see a lot of non-carebears admit they need a carbear alt to pay for does not strike me as appealing.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Pipa Porto
#830 - 2012-07-22 06:59:25 UTC
darkenspace wrote:
well i have to say it when i was a new player was like 60,000 players on line most of the time all this was said back then too
now most of the time 25.000 to 35.000 at times any way you cut it players are not going to give you money to feed them to gankers in a game this old no one cares if you fix the game for more players to play are not .
they might sub and play if its fun if not no big deal i have to say it i told you so pve is big money .
upside is every 8 months i see what the game is up to so in 16 months only cost me $30.00


http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

Peaks are just about to start regularly hitting 50k again.

The PCU Record for EVE was 63k. 60k has never been a "Most of the time" thing.

Average dropped from 34-35k before Incarna/Summer of Rage down to 26k in the months following and is back up to right around 30k.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#831 - 2012-07-22 07:01:16 UTC
darkenspace wrote:
well i have to say it when i was a new player was like 60,000 players on line most of the time all this was said back then too
now most of the time 25.000 to 35.000 at times any way you cut it players are not going to give you money to feed them to gankers in a game this old no one cares if you fix the game for more players to play are not .
they might sub and play if its fun if not no big deal i have to say it i told you so pve is big money .
upside is every 8 months i see what the game is up to so in 16 months only cost me $30.00



There has never been a time when 60000 players were logged in "most of the time". The pcu has only exceeded 60k a couple of times like during the alliance tournament.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#832 - 2012-07-22 07:04:25 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Well I don't have an answer for question 2, though I have been alone in nullsec for months now and not sure if that's "carebear" enough.

For question 1, I would have to say Live Events. In a live event, I don't care what I lose. Live Events are that epic.

Losing ships in the usual "bubbleblob/gank" routine that I see a lot of non-carebears admit they need a carbear alt to pay for does not strike me as appealing.


The "blob/ganks routine" is implicit in the open world non consensual pvp model.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Herr Hammer Draken
#833 - 2012-07-22 10:35:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Hammer Draken
Pipa Porto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
You're confusing yourself with other people again. You're getting worse — seek medical attention.


What makes you think that logi, those ecm drones or maybe that high alpha/dps ship doesn't safe the Hulk if gankers show up?


Glad you finally agree with us.

Logi, ECM Drones, Tank, and/or Combat backup can easily save a Hulk from any cost effective gank.

Glad you're finally on board.


This is EVE their is no such thing as a cost effective gank. Also many gankers are noobs and have no clue what they are doing.
Odds are while playing EVE you will encounter these kind of ganks far more frequently than you will the trained hard core ganker.

But tanking a hulk can be fun while watching one of these gankers in training try and fail to gank your hulk.

Last point, money motivates some people but the vast majority of EVE players are motivated by some other thing I will call fun.
If they think it will be fun to gank your ship then they will do so. Cost be damned this guy is going to die. EVE is so like that.
If a group of these guys are hunting you then nothing you do to that hulk or any ship you fly will save it, except possibly being in a null sec corp with lots of friends that are online at the same time you are and are willing to back you up when you need it.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#834 - 2012-07-22 10:43:24 UTC
darkenspace wrote:
well i have to say it when i was a new player was like 60,000 players on line most of the time all this was said back then too
now most of the time 25.000 to 35.000 at times any way you cut it players are not going to give you money to feed them to gankers in a game this old no one cares if you fix the game for more players to play are not .
they might sub and play if its fun if not no big deal i have to say it i told you so pve is big money .
upside is every 8 months i see what the game is up to so in 16 months only cost me $30.00


60k people playing has always been special one offs. 45k people playing is more the norm and, well hey! we still have that many playing.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#835 - 2012-07-22 12:17:02 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
You're confusing yourself with other people again. You're getting worse — seek medical attention.


What makes you think that logi, those ecm drones or maybe that high alpha/dps ship doesn't safe the Hulk if gankers show up?


Glad you finally agree with us.

Logi, ECM Drones, Tank, and/or Combat backup can easily save a Hulk from any cost effective gank.

Glad you're finally on board.


This is EVE their is no such thing as a cost effective gank. Also many gankers are noobs and have no clue what they are doing.
Odds are while playing EVE you will encounter these kind of ganks far more frequently than you will the trained hard core ganker.

But tanking a hulk can be fun while watching one of these gankers in training try and fail to gank your hulk.

Last point money motivates some people but the vast majority of EVE players are motivated by some other thing I will call fun.
If they think it will be fun to gank your ship then they will do so. Cost be damned this guy is going to die. EVE is so like that.
If a group of these guys are hunting you then nothing you do to that hulk or any ship you fly will save it, except possibly being in a null sec corp with lots of friends that are online at the same time you are and are willing to back you up when you need it.


While certainly more fun, cost-ineffective ganks don't have the privilege to last forever. Kinda like gate camping with faction-fitted ships.
Herr Hammer Draken
#836 - 2012-07-22 12:31:04 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
You're confusing yourself with other people again. You're getting worse — seek medical attention.


What makes you think that logi, those ecm drones or maybe that high alpha/dps ship doesn't safe the Hulk if gankers show up?


Glad you finally agree with us.

Logi, ECM Drones, Tank, and/or Combat backup can easily save a Hulk from any cost effective gank.

Glad you're finally on board.


This is EVE their is no such thing as a cost effective gank. Also many gankers are noobs and have no clue what they are doing.
Odds are while playing EVE you will encounter these kind of ganks far more frequently than you will the trained hard core ganker.

But tanking a hulk can be fun while watching one of these gankers in training try and fail to gank your hulk.

Last point money motivates some people but the vast majority of EVE players are motivated by some other thing I will call fun.
If they think it will be fun to gank your ship then they will do so. Cost be damned this guy is going to die. EVE is so like that.
If a group of these guys are hunting you then nothing you do to that hulk or any ship you fly will save it, except possibly being in a null sec corp with lots of friends that are online at the same time you are and are willing to back you up when you need it.


While certainly more fun, cost-ineffective ganks don't have the privilege to last forever. Kinda like gate camping with faction-fitted ships.


True but does not matter one bit to the guy that just got ganked in a cost-ineffective gank.

And as long as we have someone willing to finance ganks they can become cost effective.

This is so like taking a loss in the markets selling your items at a loss just because you want to get rid of that guy that is your competition. How often have you done that?

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#837 - 2012-07-22 13:42:33 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

And as long as we have someone willing to finance ganks they can become cost effective.


Nobody has infinite money in this game. If they do, they are hacking.

If goons are financing suicide ganking at a loss, it's their loss. The idea someone has "so much ISK it can be considered infinite" is not any different than someone buying all stacks of a rare item and reselling at double its usual price.

CCP could, instead of nerfing suicide ganking (only a symptom), introduce optional and exponentially more expensive isk sinks (root of the "issue"). Just like officer mods, only the isk spent does not go to another player but is a true sink by giving isk back to NPC entities.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#838 - 2012-07-22 13:49:43 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
CCP could, instead of nerfing suicide ganking (only a symptom), introduce optional and exponentially more expensive isk sinks (root of the "issue").
The root of the issue isn't ISK.

It's bots and people crying when their false illusion of safety gets smashed, and people thinking it's hilarious when those misinformed players come face-to-face with the reality of an open and free-for-all PvP game.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#839 - 2012-07-22 13:59:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
CCP could, instead of nerfing suicide ganking (only a symptom), introduce optional and exponentially more expensive isk sinks (root of the "issue").
The root of the issue isn't ISK.

It's bots and people crying when their false illusion of safety gets smashed, and people thinking it's hilarious when those misinformed players come face-to-face with the reality of an open and free-for-all PvP game.


Let's just agree there could be more than just a single issue? Cool

Of course people need to be aware of game mechanics so they feel it was their choices catalyzing their demise (when it was indeed the case). Besides forum PVP, it's CCP's role to make sure people are introduced to their game properly and not fed misinformation.

We can call this the butterfly effect Shocked
Pipa Porto
#840 - 2012-07-22 19:15:06 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

True but does not matter one bit to the guy that just got ganked in a cost-ineffective gank.

And as long as we have someone willing to finance ganks they can become cost effective.

This is so like taking a loss in the markets selling your items at a loss just because you want to get rid of that guy that is your competition. How often have you done that?


I haven't seen a single properly brick tanked Hulk on the KBs (but then, I don't pay too much attention). So I say that that guy doesn't exist, so nothing matters to him.

When I say that a Hulk can be made unprofitable to gank, I'm including the GSF bounty (though that's not something that should be considered in game balance) in the calculations. It requires outside help, but then, the gankers have outside help too. Without the bounties, you don't need outside help to make your Hulk unprofitable to gank.

Loss leading (though illegal in some parts of the real world) is perfectly legal in EVE.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto