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Two serious questions for the "Highsec Carebear"
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Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#681 - 2012-07-04 19:43:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Cutter Isaacson
Alaya Carrier wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…except that in most MMOs, not everything is PvP because they offer content that isn't subject to competition, whereas EVE doesn't offer any such escape from the PvP.


Only instance where the other MMOs have content not subject to competition, is when you get an instance and exclusively pick up stuff that is player bound on pick up, which is an extremely rare occurrance.

All the other times you get out with something tradable and thus you are subject to competition.


On the other side, in EvE you can achieve something quite close to "such escape" you describe.
Mine and make your ships and ammo without selling anything, then do L4 missions for the bounties. It's as close to playing a PvE game as it gets, plenty possible and also often done. Many (their bad of course) don't even bother converting the LPs and only recently looting became sort of worthwhile again (if you fly a marauder with tractor beam).



The only way you are going to be able to move past a T1 fitted T1 ship in this game is by engaging in PvP. Since high end minerals are only available in low sec or on the market, and since T2 ships and mods require moon goo to build their components, you are either going to have to compete with low/null sec dwellers in order to mine the high end minerals, or you are going to have to buy stuff from other players on the market, possibly even using buy orders.

The same goes for the moon goo. Since you pretty much have zero chance of ever getting your hands on a Tech moon, you WILL need to engage in at least market PvP at some point. Face the clear and undeniable facts mate, unless you want to stay in a noob ship, in a noob system and never ever undock, you are never going to avoid taking part in PvP in EVE.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Soundwave Plays Diablo
Doomheim
#682 - 2012-07-04 19:59:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Soundwave Plays Diablo
Quote:
not the proper tanks we were talking about...


That can still be alpha'd, every time. For less than the average drop. Period. Saying "it's aproaching not being profitable" is just another way of saying "profitable".

Also, you do realize I said I was salvaging/looting? That makes a huge difference.

Still no faction loot tho.
Pipa Porto
#683 - 2012-07-04 22:41:05 UTC
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
Quote:
not the proper tanks we were talking about...


That can still be alpha'd, every time. For less than the average drop. Period. Saying "it's aproaching not being profitable" is just another way of saying "profitable".

Also, you do realize I said I was salvaging/looting? That makes a huge difference.

Still no faction loot tho.


Show me an Alpha gank that can kill a 30k EHP Hulk for less than 30m (Loot+Salvage+GSF Bounties*). Alpha means a one shot.


*Technically, not a game balance issue, but I'll give you the extra leeway.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
loard doktor
tradersbear
#684 - 2012-07-04 22:47:33 UTC
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
Amazing how this thread went from "how much should you make" to "how safe should you be".

Again, one answers the other. The one who makes himself safest should make the most ISK.


slight vairation on this: the one smart enough to be safe ENOUGH should make the most isks.

there are many ways to make yourself safe.
loard doktor
tradersbear
#685 - 2012-07-04 22:52:37 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
you WILL need to engage in at least market PvP at some point. Face the clear and undeniable facts mate, unless you want to stay in a noob ship, in a noob system and never ever undock, you are never going to avoid taking part in PvP in EVE.


I myself consider me to be a strong market pvper. Market pvp my not destroy ships, but isk can cut deeply, if you know how to weild them.
Helioex
Knotty 'Nauts
#686 - 2012-07-04 22:56:37 UTC
Quote:
1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself". Showing emotion - sadness or rage - for such a lose is understandable; such is the nature of the game. So please, an honest response.


Mining in HS is my equivalent of a trip down to the river to go fishing. I can sit back, crack a beer, and relax. Just like with fishing, I won't make much profit. For fishing I get dinner for a couple nights, for mining I get a few million ISK.

Given that comparison, I want the risk to be minimal. Belt rats are the equivalent of losing a bobber, or fishing up a piece of junk. Those events are annoying, but accepted parts of fishing. Ganking is the equivalent of some random knob paddling up and sledgehammering your boat. This isn't something that happens when I go fishing to relax, and it isn't something that should happen when I go mining to relax.

Quote:
2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make? What is the maximum and the minimum isk/hour that should be available when you perform said activities under you ideal risk/reward ratio you thought of when answering question 1.


Profit doesn't matter; I'm relaxing and fishing, not going to work. If I spend a bunch of money (ISK) and upgrade to a commercial fishing trawler (Hulk) I'd like for that to at least pay my rent for the month (PLEX). Having spent that much money it becomes a job, something that I have to work at. Given that it becomes a job, it should also cover other expenses if I spend enough time at it.
Pipa Porto
#687 - 2012-07-04 23:41:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Helioex wrote:
Quote:
1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself". Showing emotion - sadness or rage - for such a lose is understandable; such is the nature of the game. So please, an honest response.


Mining in HS is my equivalent of a trip down to the river to go fishing. I can sit back, crack a beer, and relax. Just like with fishing, I won't make much profit. For fishing I get dinner for a couple nights, for mining I get a few million ISK.

Given that comparison, I want the risk to be minimal. Belt rats are the equivalent of losing a bobber, or fishing up a piece of junk. Those events are annoying, but accepted parts of fishing. Ganking is the equivalent of some random knob paddling up and sledgehammering your boat. This isn't something that happens when I go fishing to relax, and it isn't something that should happen when I go mining to relax.

Quote:
2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make? What is the maximum and the minimum isk/hour that should be available when you perform said activities under you ideal risk/reward ratio you thought of when answering question 1.


Profit doesn't matter; I'm relaxing and fishing, not going to work. If I spend a bunch of money (ISK) and upgrade to a commercial fishing trawler (Hulk) I'd like for that to at least pay my rent for the month (PLEX). Having spent that much money it becomes a job, something that I have to work at. Given that it becomes a job, it should also cover other expenses if I spend enough time at it.


Fly in something other than a Hulk if profit doesn't matter to you. I doubt anyone will gank a tanked Occator.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Soundwave Plays Diablo
Doomheim
#688 - 2012-07-05 00:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Soundwave Plays Diablo
I love this thread
Pipa Porto
#689 - 2012-07-05 02:14:09 UTC
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
I love this thread


It's a special little circle.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#690 - 2012-07-05 11:06:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
I love this thread


I love the fact that some people think PVE games can't be played as PVP games.
Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#691 - 2012-07-05 15:45:14 UTC
There will always be carebears, but forcing people into low/null isn't the way. This game needs more positive reasons to go to low/null, instead of negative reasons to not be in high.

Telling your child you'll punch them in the face if they don't get As on the report-card will cause more trouble than it's worth. Just tell them they'll get $20 for every A.

Positive vs Negative re-enforcement.
Soundwave Plays Diablo
Doomheim
#692 - 2012-07-05 15:51:28 UTC
Barakach wrote:
There will always be carebears, but forcing people into low/null isn't the way. This game needs more positive reasons to go to low/null, instead of negative reasons to not be in high.

Telling your child you'll punch them in the face if they don't get As on the report-card will cause more trouble than it's worth. Just tell them they'll get $20 for every A.

Positive vs Negative re-enforcement.


Can't wait till you have kids.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#693 - 2012-07-05 16:08:53 UTC
Barakach wrote:
There will always be carebears, but forcing people into low/null isn't the way. This game needs more positive reasons to go to low/null, instead of negative reasons to not be in high.

Telling your child you'll punch them in the face if they don't get As on the report-card will cause more trouble than it's worth. Just tell them they'll get $20 for every A.

Positive vs Negative re-enforcement.


There already is more positive reasons to go to low/null than there is negative reasons.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#694 - 2012-07-05 16:16:10 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:

But you are indeed describing EvE: on paper lots of stuff, lots of competition, lots of epic battles... then in reality as long as you really don't go find them with the magnifier glass all you get is a quite dull and riskless farmland.


I just wanted to focus on this very last sentence in your post (#671)

The part where you say "in reality" is actually where we both agree. This entire quote is essentially what you are trying to refute but worded differently than someone who says "nerf highsec".

Ask any CCP dev if they want their game to be a "dull and riskless farmland".
Gerald Taric
NEO DYNAMICS
#695 - 2012-07-05 16:21:34 UTC
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:


Can't wait till you have kids.
Rollokay, let's say it in other words:

Force/reprisals will in most cases not end in good.

If you want someone to check out something else/new, convince him/her.
If the benefit was not clearly visible to him/her , you failed to do so, or there indeed is none for him/her.
Maybe he/she does not like the way of game you love so much. This is also possible.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#696 - 2012-07-05 16:30:09 UTC
Helioex wrote:
Quote:
1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself". Showing emotion - sadness or rage - for such a lose is understandable; such is the nature of the game. So please, an honest response.


Mining in HS is my equivalent of a trip down to the river to go fishing. I can sit back, crack a beer, and relax. Just like with fishing, I won't make much profit. For fishing I get dinner for a couple nights, for mining I get a few million ISK.

Given that comparison, I want the risk to be minimal. Belt rats are the equivalent of losing a bobber, or fishing up a piece of junk. Those events are annoying, but accepted parts of fishing. Ganking is the equivalent of some random knob paddling up and sledgehammering your boat. This isn't something that happens when I go fishing to relax, and it isn't something that should happen when I go mining to relax.

Quote:
2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make? What is the maximum and the minimum isk/hour that should be available when you perform said activities under you ideal risk/reward ratio you thought of when answering question 1.


Profit doesn't matter; I'm relaxing and fishing, not going to work. If I spend a bunch of money (ISK) and upgrade to a commercial fishing trawler (Hulk) I'd like for that to at least pay my rent for the month (PLEX). Having spent that much money it becomes a job, something that I have to work at. Given that it becomes a job, it should also cover other expenses if I spend enough time at it.


The reason you compare mining to fishing is because you take your country's stability level for granted. I does not matter which country you live in, but down the road people had to fight/die for this peaceful environment you have the chance to live in. You are essentially experiencing "living in 0.0 surrounded by a sea of blues" when fishing. This is because 0.0 alliances can enforce "prevention" and the highsec area is equivalent to living in a foreign country where authorities only punish after the offense.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#697 - 2012-07-05 16:40:49 UTC
Gerald Taric wrote:
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:


Can't wait till you have kids.
Rollokay, let's say it in other words:

Force/reprisals will in most cases not end in good.

If you want someone to check out something else/new, convince him/her.
If the benefit was not clearly visible to him/her , you failed to do so, or there indeed is none for him/her.
Maybe he/she does not like the way of game you love so much. This is also possible.




Can we stop comparing high-sec dwellers to kids?

There are no kids playing EVE, even in highsec. Most players should be capable of rational and intelligent thinking, you know, like any independent adult in the real world.

Claiming highsec dwellers have the mentality of 10 year olds does not help your case whether you are defending them or challenging them.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#698 - 2012-07-05 17:54:58 UTC
Oh, missed this one…
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
That can still be alpha'd, every time. For less than the average drop. Period.
No, they really can't. Exclamation mark.

Hence the description “proper tank”.
Toroup
Prometheus Deep Core Mining and Salvage
#699 - 2012-07-05 18:51:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Toroup
Didn't read all billion pages on this but here are the 2 things


1) Risk - as for miners, the ships should be able to be fitted to withstand an alpha attack from a similar cost ship until Concord arrives. So a fully fitted Hulk that is say 400M should take a 400M ship to destroy it. Fittings will cost yield so it's a trade off. You want more yield, you accept more risk. You want less risk, your yield suffers.


2) - Reward - again, as a miner, I have zero control over reward. I could put Trit up in Jita for 500 isk - it won't sell. I could put it up for 5 isk and it will outsell everyone else. I'm not the one buying it so all I can do is put up an ask price. The people who buy it are the ones who decide what it will sell for - not me. So I have no control over reward, as it's a buyers economy.

As far as how it helps the game - everything in Eve is player built, that is one of it's strengths. To **** on an occupation that, ironically, provided the very materials for the ships that you are using is hypocritical. PVPers consume resources, they don't add them.

On a side note, this whole war on miners is a joke. You seriously don't think that the people who started it really care about the "integrity" or "seriousness" of Eve do you? It's about grand scale market manipulation. They bought out the minerals at low prices and now, by causing a shortage, they can sell them high. Look at the cost of Trit over the last year - what do you think drove it up?Plus they have their own miners (again hypocritical) mining so they they can continue to sell high.

Thinking that this is anything else just shows how small minded you are. There is no righteous war here or care about "cleaning up" Eve - it's simply about isk, it always is. So you plow your Tornado into a Hulk and feel all warm inside. It costs you money but did you ever ask who is making the money?
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#700 - 2012-07-05 19:35:10 UTC
Toroup wrote:

Thinking that this is anything else just shows how small minded you are.


I love the irony of this statement.

No one is denying someone or a group can profit from the situation at hand. In fact, could you even deny that all miners capable of avoiding ganks are making a bigger profit? What you are doing is having a narrow view of the whole situation and calling it "the only thing that matters".

Also, the whole point of shooting other ships is to make a profit. Sometimes the gain isn't measured in pure isk (killmails, territorial claim, etc.). In suicide ganking though, gain is measured in how much the ship drops in loot, not how much it costs the owner.

Remove that gain and suicide ganking's only motivation becomes tears.

You will notice that any ship delivering optimal performance in either DPS, hauling or mining is subject to this rule: it costs less to suicide gank it than it's average drop.