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Two serious questions for the "Highsec Carebear"
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Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2012-07-01 22:04:14 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
[quote=Prince Kobol]
One cannot want what he never had. Since the income one makes in highsec can affect the game for the one playing outside of highsec it is quite important the income potential be balanced. If most players feel that the income potential outside of highsec is too low for the risk they need to take then this means one of two things: either the rewards in high are too high or the rewards outside of highsec are too low. But nerfing one or buffing the other will have the opposite effect on the opposite region so my question still stands: is highsec income too low, enough are too high and why?


Define "most players". Because besides the usual 5-6 mouthpieces who would not stop before hi sec is deleted, there's really nobody crying about rewards any more.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#182 - 2012-07-01 22:04:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Do you really think that's not enough?
Fair enough, I missed the 0.5 / 20s. On the other hand, that means we're talking about another 40k EHP, so no, it won't be enough.

Hell, just a single Basilisk will push the EHP barrier to 93k in 0.5 (only 2.3k DPS required…).


You see, DPS can always be countered — the only thing that assures destruction is alpha, and alpha costs…
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#183 - 2012-07-01 22:06:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Do you really think that's not enough?
Fair enough, I missed the 0.5 / 20s. On the other hand, that means we're talking about another 40k EHP, so no, it won't be enough.


Show me 110k EHP Hulk tank.
Pipa Porto
#184 - 2012-07-01 22:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Like I've so patiently explained to the black hole that is your mind in other threads, you Tank your Hulk (which means you need 5-6 Catalysts just for the tank) then you use RR. I don't consider 12-15 characters to be a reasonable number to gank a Hulk. 6 might be, and that requires 6 Tornados. That's a total cost of around 500m Isk, or more than the value of the Hulk


You can gank tanked Hulk with two characters in 0.5 space. You don't need 6.

How, you ask. I've heard that most gankers don't do it for profit. They do it because they can do it.


Gankers do not have infinite wallets.

Now, since you said you can do it with two characters:

GANK THAT HULK (use only 2 characters).

[Hulk, Tank Fit]

Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Damage Control II

Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Upgraded Kinetic Deflection Amplifier I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

With 6 Large T2 Shield reps providing 602.4 raw shield HP per second (I'll tell you how much EHP that is when you pick your damage type). And in .5 space, no baiting CONCORD away (because that would warn the miner).

EDIT: Forgot to OH.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#185 - 2012-07-01 22:08:31 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Do you really think that's not enough?
Fair enough, I missed the 0.5 / 20s. On the other hand, that means we're talking about another 40k EHP, so no, it won't be enough.


Show me 110k EHP Hulk tank.


Show me the Talos that can do 110k damage before a shield rep cycles.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#186 - 2012-07-01 22:11:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Show me 110k EHP Hulk tank.
…actually, I was using the old, low-tanking non-MSE version. Sorry about that. Let's try this one instead:

Damage Control II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
2× Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
2× Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

= 37.2k EHP vs. blasters.

6× Large Shield Transporter II → 4083.7 EHP/s × 20s = 81.7 EHP

∑ 118.9 EHP.

Four of your Taloi are required, costing you 320M ISK in ships alone (and to get that DPS, you need a fair amount of expensive equipment on top of that).
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#187 - 2012-07-01 22:13:33 UTC
Are you real? Your craptastic hulk fits neuter any kind of income.

It's vastly better to have a "decent" tank hulk that will die to 3 catalysts but will yield 30% more a day than your horripilant fit that only serves as bait.

Getting ganked 5 times a year but making 15B > zero ganks but making 10B.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#188 - 2012-07-01 22:14:33 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Show me the Talos that can do 110k damage before a shield rep cycles.


Show me combat pilot that is ready sit in belt doing nothing when even running sites in hisec would be more productive.
Pipa Porto
#189 - 2012-07-01 22:15:29 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
Are you real? Your craptastic hulk fits neuter any kind of income.

It's vastly better to have a "decent" tank hulk that will die to 3 catalysts but will yield 30% more a day than your horripilant fit that only serves as bait.

Getting ganked 5 times a year but making 15B > zero ganks but making 10B.


You can choose to sacrifice tank for yield. That is your choice.

Jorma is claiming that it is impossible to tank a Hulk effectively, despite the fact that he has been proven wrong so many times that his bringing up his claims again is dishonest.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#190 - 2012-07-01 22:16:16 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Show me the Talos that can do 110k damage before a shield rep cycles.


Show me combat pilot that is ready sit in belt doing nothing when even running sites in hisec would be more productive.


You claimed something was impossible. Whether you have the will to do it is irrelevant.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#191 - 2012-07-01 22:17:28 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
Are you real? Your craptastic hulk fits neuter any kind of income.

It's vastly better to have a "decent" tank hulk that will die to 3 catalysts but will yield 30% more a day than your horripilant fit that only serves as bait.

Getting ganked 5 times a year but making 15B > zero ganks but making 10B.
Yes, but that's not the argument. The (false) claim people are trying to make is that you can't tank your hulk to protect it against ganks. The fact of the matter is that you can… quite easily. Whether you want (or choose) to or not is a different matter and comes down to whether you want to run the long-term numbers game or not.

The option is there. People claim it's not. Those people are wrong. That's all.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#192 - 2012-07-01 22:17:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Show me 110k EHP Hulk tank.
…actually, I was using the old, low-tanking non-MSE version. Sorry about that. Let's try this one instead:

Damage Control II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
2× Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
2× Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

= 37.2k EHP vs. blasters.

6× Large Shield Transporter II → 4083.7 EHP/s × 20s = 81.7 EHP

∑ 118.9 EHP.

Four of your Taloi are required, costing you 320M ISK in ships alone (and to get that DPS, you need a fair amount of expensive equipment on top of that).


Even overheated it only has 35k buffer against blasters.
Switch to 4 Tornadoes and Hulk is history.
Pipa Porto
#193 - 2012-07-01 22:19:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Show me 110k EHP Hulk tank.
…actually, I was using the old, low-tanking non-MSE version. Sorry about that. Let's try this one instead:

Damage Control II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
2× Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
2× Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

= 37.2k EHP vs. blasters.

6× Large Shield Transporter II → 4083.7 EHP/s × 20s = 81.7 EHP

∑ 118.9 EHP.

Four of your Taloi are required, costing you 320M ISK in ships alone (and to get that DPS, you need a fair amount of expensive equipment on top of that).


Even overheated it only has 35k buffer against blasters.
Switch to 4 Tornadoes and Hulk is history.


4 Tornadoes* would cost about 400m in fitted ships. That is more than your Hulk. Do you even read what you type?

*This assumes everyone is able to fire on the same tick, otherwise the RR will neuter the gank.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#194 - 2012-07-01 22:22:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Even overheated it only has 35k buffer against blasters.
Funnily enough, no, unless you're using some very odd blaster ammo.

e: in fact, the only way I can get it that low is to use 100% thermal, which is not what your blasters will deliver (especially not if they're loaded with the kind of high-damage ammo required to get your DPS figures). With CNAM L, it's actually closing in on 128k EHP… Lol

Quote:
Switch to 4 Tornadoes and Hulk is history.
…which still means it costs far more than the ship is worth (because, again, alpha costs) and still can't be done with two people. So yes, thank you for finally getting the point and agreeing with us.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#195 - 2012-07-01 22:27:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Tippia wrote:
Funnily enough, no, unless you're using some very odd blaster ammo.


Why would you use Antimatter?

Tippia wrote:
…which still means it costs far more than the ship is worth (because, again, alpha costs) and still can't be done with two people. So yes, thank you for finally getting the point and agreeing with us.


It can be done. Seriously, how many miners do you see there with logi repping them?

And you two just don't get it. Sitting there doing nothing because gankers go away is probably 2nd to most boring thing you can do in EVE. Most boring thing is sitting at the door in WH scanning for new entrances.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#196 - 2012-07-01 22:30:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Why would you use Antimatter?
Then you're doing a 60/40 split in the favour of Kinetic damage, for a total of 39.4k EHP.

Quote:
It can be done.
Prove it. Post a fit that delivers some 20k alpha (so two of them can get through the buffer and not be subject to RR) and costs less than 150M (so two of them costs less than the Hulk).
Pipa Porto
#197 - 2012-07-01 22:35:00 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Funnily enough, no, unless you're using some very odd blaster ammo.


Why would you use Antimatter?

Tippia wrote:
…which still means it costs far more than the ship is worth (because, again, alpha costs) and still can't be done with two people. So yes, thank you for finally getting the point and agreeing with us.


It can be done. Seriously, how many miners do you see there with logi repping them?


Choosing not to do something does not make it impossible. You argued that it was impossible to tank a Hulk to make a gank cost more than the Hulk with 2 people ganking.

So, you now have asserted cheap, 2 person gank of an RRed tanked Hulk, 6 80k EHP cruisers, and a 2km/s cloaked ship. When are you going to prove your assertions or drop them?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#198 - 2012-07-01 22:35:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Why would you use Antimatter?
Then you're doing a 60/40 split in the favour of Kinetic damage, for a total of 39.4k EHP.


Try using more thermal based ammo like Void. 35k against Void.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#199 - 2012-07-01 22:37:04 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Try using more thermal based ammo like Void. 35k against Void.
Void L — 50/50 split: 38.7k EHP.
Again, the only way to get it to 35k is to have 100% Thermal… i.e. not blaster ammo (and especially not high-damage blaster ammo).
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#200 - 2012-07-01 22:40:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Do you really think that's not enough?
Fair enough, I missed the 0.5 / 20s. On the other hand, that means we're talking about another 40k EHP, so no, it won't be enough.

Hell, just a single Basilisk will push the EHP barrier to 93k in 0.5 (only 2.3k DPS required…).


You see, DPS can always be countered — the only thing that assures destruction is alpha, and alpha costs…


right dont you wish there was hybrid ammo that slowed the rate of fire but drastically increased the alpha...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.