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Incarna/WiS Disappointment

First post First post First post
Author
Price Check Aisle3
#341 - 2012-07-03 18:24:20 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
The only way this new Avatar game content idea will work is if you're in a very large player Corp or Alliance with a lot of members all online at the same time in the same sector of space.

Let's remember that Team Avatar has already specified that no FIS gameplay functionality will be changed, so exploration will still be a viable solo career in space. To run one of the WIS sites, you might have a gang off doing something else while one or two guys do their exploration. They find a site and call in the gang, a few of which join them in the station and a few of which protect those inside.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
No dedicated experienced explorer is going to enter these sites with the risk of losing their clone, their skill points, their implants, their ship, their loot and end up in a medical clone on the other side of the universe.

I highly doubt people are going to lose skill points over this, but might lose implants, loot, and ship. That's the cost of doing business. I get the impression you've never left high-sec.
  • Karl Hobb IATS
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#342 - 2012-07-03 18:28:29 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:





CCP Bayesian wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Team Avatar, maybe just providing meeting areas rather than having the players re-purpose exploration content would be better?


We'd have nothing against people camping out in these structures.

That said making actual gameplay gives us a much better point to add social areas as you note yourself they share a lot of the same technology requirements. So I'd rather hope that we did both. Smile


Here is a quote earlier in this thread from CCP Bayesian, explaining that the tech used to make site gameplay would put us in a strong position to open that door for you.



ok i am sure that your blog will give us a clear view on how you think station environments will be

R.S.I2014

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#343 - 2012-07-03 18:34:48 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Nullsec might provide better rewards though than Highsec, but that shouldn't be shocking news for any player.

When will CCP be applying this philosophy to the rest of Eve? Blink

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Steve Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#344 - 2012-07-03 18:42:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Thomas
Ranger 1 wrote:
Steve Thomas wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:


Considering the multi player and combat oriented nature of WOD, which uses the same engine, I'm pretty sure they considered that. Smile

they may have considered that, but given what they were doing with the game up to that point, how little they were able to show, and the fact that it aparently took them 10 years to still not figure out how to do things in a Single player enviroment that were solved way back when they launched the N64?

Never mind that what we got had me thinking back Fondly at the launch of Second life way back in 2003, and at the time I thought THAT was mostly a steaming pile of crap because that was what most of the player created content was.(and now most of SL player created content is a load of Porno-crap)


Steve, you know as well as everyone else does that the time spent in development (certainly not 10 years) was working on the core tech, not the bells and whistles. If they had simply released it with the provisio that it was a tech demo of the new engine (and made it voluntary from the start) most of the fury over it's release would never have occured.

We as a community made it painfully apparent that we didn't want EVE resources wasted on further tinkering, so that has been handed back to the WOD team for the most part.

It was our choice, now we have to live with the repercussions.

I think that making graphically smooth Avatar based multiplayer gameplay a reality in EVE is the least of our worries.

ok your definition of core teck and mine are apaently radicaly diferent.

Core tec for a mmo is

Being able to move in a resonable /realistic manor
Being able to have a camera that is both easy to use and not a hinderance to combat.
Being able to, on the lowest designed settings, properly handle multiple simultaniously active actors that are not performing the same actions.

given that criteria what we have is not a "tech demo". it was computer generated animated concept art.

and as I have pointed out elsewhere, companies who have spent HALF the reported total manyears of developer time have managed to produce Functioning single player game engines. (which Aparently I need to remind you you was suposed to be the NEXT step in the Development of WiS, not a multi player mmo, we were suposed to have "non combat" areas for us to interact with eachother, and Single player "missions" given to us by special WiS agents. why? because they realised that it would take a lot of time for the exising Engine to handle the third core thing a game engine needs to do given the limmits of existing, and theoretical development of graphic cards.)

Not Computer generated concept art.

I will grant that some of thoes companies have also spent more man hours develiping an Engine thats still Vaporware.... Which ironicaly seems to be a bit of a warning to developers that trying to reinvent the wheel from scratch is not something you can pull off with any degree or hope of success without spending geometricaly increasing manyears of work.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#345 - 2012-07-03 18:46:46 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
What about new players just starting this game? They definitely don't have the skills, equipment or experience to quickly scan down these sites compared to older players...


What skills and equipment do you think are needed to scan down a hi-sec plex? Relatively new players are making a good living doing this now.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#346 - 2012-07-03 18:49:12 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Nullsec might provide better rewards though than Highsec, but that shouldn't be shocking news for any player.

When will CCP be applying this philosophy to the rest of Eve? Blink



Oh snap!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Atrocitus Parallax
Doomheim
#347 - 2012-07-03 19:00:15 UTC
Stops by
Looks for dev blog
Doesn't see it
Leaves














































shameless bump for dev blogging pressure :)
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#348 - 2012-07-03 19:34:29 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Some answers,

For me WiS is not something that only 0.0 players should benefit from. It should be available to all who wish to participate.
Rewards should be justified though. The more you danger you put yourself in, the more rewards you should reap.

The WiS ecosystem should tie in with FiS gameplay, this shouldn't be some stand-alone gameplay avenue that doesn't effect pilot-based only players. Manufacturing could play a part in this for example.

Death with your avatar (if used) does lead to some interesting 'perma-death' questions. (Who would vote for a EvE hardcore mode?)



@Ishtanchuk Fazmarai

The first point from this earlier post clarifies my personal stance on WiS gameplay.
I agree with you that sites should not only be available for nullsec players only.
On the same note, nowhere have Team Avatar mentioned that sites should be nullsec specific. I don't know where this idea has sprung up from. Nullsec might provide better rewards though than Highsec, but that shouldn't be shocking news for any player.

I also agree that solo players should be able to participate in site gameplay, but I don't agree that there should be 'safe' sites. EvE is not just about gain, it's about loss and accomplishments against the odds.


You may make them "available" to everyone, but your mechanics will render them unplayable outside of nullsec ubercorporations, much as DeMichael Crimsom already pointed out.

You at least could compromise and split those dungeons into levels, from "solo - no PvP allowed" to "full scale - big monies for the goonies".

That doesn't sorts what to do with people who don't feel like raiding dungeons, but at last would be fairer than hand out the first functional WiS content to those who never asked it, nor waited for it, nor gave a damm of it.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Irya Boone
The Scope
#349 - 2012-07-03 20:07:26 UTC
Blog post in 1 day ? please please please Bear

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB

Price Check Aisle3
#350 - 2012-07-03 20:12:24 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
"solo - no PvP allowed"

This does not exist in EVE unless you're docked up spinning your ship. Why should it be added in? It's pretty much anathema to the entire philosophy of EVE.
  • Karl Hobb IATS
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#351 - 2012-07-03 20:57:03 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

You at least could compromise and split those dungeons into levels, from "solo - no PvP allowed" to "full scale - big monies for the goonies".

That doesn't sorts what to do with people who don't feel like raiding dungeons, but at last would be fairer than hand out the first functional WiS content to those who never asked it, nor waited for it, nor gave a damm of it.


What the hell are you talking about? Why should CCP build single player only content into an MMO?

There are plenty of games out there that already cater to your needs so just play them.

I don't want these new exploration sites to be a griefers paradise but there has to be some risk and competition, otherwise what's the point?!

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#352 - 2012-07-03 21:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dosnix
Price Check Aisle3 wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
"solo - no PvP allowed"

This does not exist in EVE unless you're docked up spinning your ship. Why should it be added in? It's pretty much anathema to the entire philosophy of EVE.


*snip*

Quote:
6. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another. Text of this nature is not beneficial to the community spirit and will not be tolerated. Corporation, faction and alliance members and other players are cautioned to avoid allowing “in character” disputes from becoming "out of character" personal attacks. The game is designed for role-playing and/or portraying a role and it is sometimes easy for tempers to flare when the lines between the virtual world and the real world are crossed. Please keep in-game disputes in the game and off the forum unless it is clearly a mutual, in-character exchange.


I´ve deleted the bad content (Flaming) in your post ;)
Kind Regards
ISD Dosnix

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Price Check Aisle3
#353 - 2012-07-03 21:23:55 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Ishtanchuk is pretty much the poster child for 'hates EVE and everything about it, and would like CCP to make it into a completely different game for their personal amusement'.

Oh, I'm quite familiar with the Fazmarai guy's idiosyncrasies. He's one of the worst posters on this forum and, not surprisingly, has an incredibly disturbing psychopathic streak that shows in several posts in this thread.
  • Karl Hobb IATS
Celeste Taylor
Ruby Dynasty
#354 - 2012-07-03 21:38:41 UTC
I can feel a bit of excitement in the air. I'm a new player, but am now getting a sense of what things were like pre-Incarna and can now understand why people were furious when it didn't deliver. All this news has us worked up, even though the majority of the community is a bit bitter and jaded over the previous failure to live up to expectations. Please deliver on what you have been teasing at.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#355 - 2012-07-03 22:18:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Rek Seven wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

You at least could compromise and split those dungeons into levels, from "solo - no PvP allowed" to "full scale - big monies for the goonies".

That doesn't sorts what to do with people who don't feel like raiding dungeons, but at last would be fairer than hand out the first functional WiS content to those who never asked it, nor waited for it, nor gave a damm of it.


What the hell are you talking about? Why should CCP build single player only content into an MMO?

There are plenty of games out there that already cater to your needs so just play them.

I don't want these new exploration sites to be a griefers paradise but there has to be some risk and competition, otherwise what's the point?!



I can think of several reasons, in no particular order:

- because they already did so
- because that would expand their market niche
- because EVE is the only alternative to many players
- because it would do no harm

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Hermia
HIVE
Picture No Point
#356 - 2012-07-04 01:15:13 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

You at least could compromise and split those dungeons into levels, from "solo - no PvP allowed" to "full scale - big monies for the goonies".

That doesn't sorts what to do with people who don't feel like raiding dungeons, but at last would be fairer than hand out the first functional WiS content to those who never asked it, nor waited for it, nor gave a damm of it.


What the hell are you talking about? Why should CCP build single player only content into an MMO?

There are plenty of games out there that already cater to your needs so just play them.

I don't want these new exploration sites to be a griefers paradise but there has to be some risk and competition, otherwise what's the point?!



I can think of several reasons, in no particular order:

- because they already did so
- because that would expand their market niche
- because EVE is the only alternative to many players
- because it would do no harm


As opposed to,

Game design that's supports both solo and multiplayer without erecting stupid walls or silly rules. An elegant solution (or a sandbox solution) is providing players with content and opportunities and letting nature take its course. Adjusting natural laws for gameplay considerations should be used sparingly, you more you do it the less sandboxy things become.

Well thats me, but im a big proponent of immersion.
Lenore Leelu
Obsidian Dynamics
#357 - 2012-07-04 02:25:58 UTC
Terranid Meester wrote:
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:
Yeah, and where the hell does he poop?


Toilets are a relic of an oppressive society. You see those protein delicacies boxes and quafe bottles?
Theres a reason your avatar doesn't eat or drink from them.

Either that or when your logged off your avatar just walks out of the station door and uses the toilets opposite.


And that is why the air is not fit for capsuleer consumption.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#358 - 2012-07-04 06:56:10 UTC
Hermia wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

You at least could compromise and split those dungeons into levels, from "solo - no PvP allowed" to "full scale - big monies for the goonies".

That doesn't sorts what to do with people who don't feel like raiding dungeons, but at last would be fairer than hand out the first functional WiS content to those who never asked it, nor waited for it, nor gave a damm of it.


What the hell are you talking about? Why should CCP build single player only content into an MMO?

There are plenty of games out there that already cater to your needs so just play them.

I don't want these new exploration sites to be a griefers paradise but there has to be some risk and competition, otherwise what's the point?!



I can think of several reasons, in no particular order:

- because they already did so
- because that would expand their market niche
- because EVE is the only alternative to many players
- because it would do no harm


As opposed to,

Game design that's supports both solo and multiplayer without erecting stupid walls or silly rules. An elegant solution (or a sandbox solution) is providing players with content and opportunities and letting nature take its course. Adjusting natural laws for gameplay considerations should be used sparingly, you more you do it the less sandboxy things become.

Well thats me, but im a big proponent of immersion.


Maybe the meaning has been lost through comments, but in my first message i was suggesting to have dungeons for every playstyle and location, and not just a one-fits-all that could only work in nullsec ubercorporations with manpower an intel nets and the resources necessary to not be blown to bits nor backstabbed while you spend hours (which I don't have anyway) exploring a site.

By the way, I would like to explain where i am comign from with this Wis discussion. I have been missing solo/casual/hisec endgame content in EVE after trying the other content I interested myself. I believe that adding more content to the already saturated FiS gameplay is going to become increasingly tricky due to the complexity of the game and the interaction between new and old stuff, so I figured that, as WiS was to be something different and new, it would be easier to use WiS as a gateway to add the kind of content i miss (solo, casual, hisec) along with the average EVE orthodoxy. WiS could become "alternate" gameplay to limit the explosive interaction with the delicate balance of FiS.

The first ambulation teaser caught my attention late in my time in the game, when it already was dead and buried, but then where sounding drums about Incarna taking the place of Ambulation. Then Incarna turned how it tuned and now I see how CCP is planning to implement it in a way that will only favor nullsec ubercorporations, and any possibility to get some alternate gameplay that is not the same old drill is not even considered.

I expected WiS to come as a daring revolution to catch the hope and dreams of existing and unsuspecting wannabe players and now it's ending up as a stronghold of orthodoxy that won't lure anyone into the game (there are far better dungeon raiders out there) and will reward the ones who opposed WiS (FiS kings of the hill) and slap the ones who believed the last 6-7 years of PR about it.

Oh, I am aware of the "making this will make easier that" argument. But that's putting a huge bet on CCP's manpower to do more than one major content at a time. Iterate FiS + iterate dungeon raiding + "magically now we can implement social and other gameplay too" doesn't sounds likely. Let alone in the "no Jesus features" land...

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#359 - 2012-07-04 07:26:21 UTC
Price Check Aisle3 wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
The only way this new Avatar game content idea will work is if you're in a very large player Corp or Alliance with a lot of members all online at the same time in the same sector of space.

Let's remember that Team Avatar has already specified that no FIS gameplay functionality will be changed, so exploration will still be a viable solo career in space. To run one of the WIS sites, you might have a gang off doing something else while one or two guys do their exploration. They find a site and call in the gang, a few of which join them in the station and a few of which protect those inside.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
No dedicated experienced explorer is going to enter these sites with the risk of losing their clone, their skill points, their implants, their ship, their loot and end up in a medical clone on the other side of the universe.

I highly doubt people are going to lose skill points over this, but might lose implants, loot, and ship. That's the cost of doing business. I get the impression you've never left high-sec.

Obviously you didn't bother to actually read my entire reply.

It's clear you don't do exploration or any PvE content for that matter. Seems you spend a lot of time trolling these forums instead. Also you have no clue who I am, what I do or where I go in this game.

No dedicated experienced explorer is going to go into these sites and risk losing his clone, his implants, his ship and his loot. Not to mention the time and isk that will be spent to replace everything including upgrading a new medical clone. The only ones who will be able to take advantage of this new content will be very large player corps and null sec alliances.

Malcanis wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
What about new players just starting this game? They definitely don't have the skills, equipment or experience to quickly scan down these sites compared to older players...


What skills and equipment do you think are needed to scan down a hi-sec plex? Relatively new players are making a good living doing this now.

Another person who doesn't bother to read the entire reply.

New players have no chance compared to experienced older explorers who have max skills and use top of the line equipment. I've seen plenty of threads being posted by new players asking why they can't find any other exploration sites other than anomalies, w-holes and grav sites.
Agony Etain
Black Thorn Elites of EVE
#360 - 2012-07-04 07:35:25 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:
My completely awesome idea:

Develop the WiS stuff it as a new game. Have all kinds of cool stuff in stations - bars, gambling, let us shoot, talk and otherwise interact with each other. With enough depth, it could even be a whole MMO in itself.

Then, in a similar way to Dust, tie it all into Eve. If we travel between stations, we buy passage on an Eve player's ship. Let us hire Dust players to take planets for us, or maybe to provide muscle for our station-based crime syndicate.

I would love to see this sort of "integrated but seperate" idea develop to the point where I, playing WiS Online, could hire Eve players to transport my Dust-player mercenaries to the station owned by my rival in order for them to assault his HQ, creating enough of a distraction for my friend's spy character to hack my rival's computers and download his most advanced blueprints or siphon off cash.


This is total win imo... Good job sir. Not only that, it would be quite revolutionary to the gaming industry, as Dust 514 "might" be.. I say might because CCP has proven in the past to utterly fail to bring what they promised to the table in a timely fashion.

TO have not 2 but 3 games interlinked liked this? would be quite epic.