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The future of Community and CCL

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CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
#61 - 2012-06-26 18:28:05 UTC
Unfortuantely I need to leave now but I will be back to answer more points tomorrow.

Be cool.
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#62 - 2012-06-26 18:34:06 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:
Unfortuantely I need to leave now but I will be back to answer more points tomorrow.

Be cool.


Thanks for taking the time, enjoy the sun!
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#63 - 2012-06-26 18:34:23 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
A fair bit off topic, but since Navigator is already responding to this thread, can you please resume using the RSS feed for patch notes (found here - http://community.eveonline.com/feed/rdfpatchnotes.asp)?


Hmmm, I will pass this on to the right people first thing in the morning.


Cheers!
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#64 - 2012-06-26 18:34:57 UTC
Bring back CCP Zymurgist and CCP Wrangler and everything will be forgiven. Blink

How to win EVE
Quaaid
Phoenix Foundry
#65 - 2012-06-26 18:43:21 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:
Unfortuantely I need to leave now but I will be back to answer more points tomorrow.

Be cool.



^ This is a trap. Pirate


Just to touch on your last comment to my reply. There is no intelligent distinction being made between posts of no use (crap posts) and abusive posts (which I agree need moderation). The ISD team has been too heavy handed in their approach and the community is not responding well.

Your community is always generating massive amounts of useless posts, these posts need a home that is not the trash bin. If you won't recognise that then you chose to silence the (I would say majority) of your community. They will (and are) fighting you to be heard on an irrational level. Posting for the sake of posting to them is a freedom they don't want to give up, even though it's pointless it is a distraction to them that is fun or engaging on some level. Taking it away is going to be met with resistance.

Sum up crap posting to 'entertainment'. Take ISDs efforts of late as a limitation to that outlet of entertainment. With that in mind, make educated decisions about how to still meet your communiity goals without limiting the entertainment value of posting.
Remigius Varagine
Hibernating
#66 - 2012-06-26 18:45:17 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:

Seriouspost: This is a very good question for The Mittani. He literally makes this sort of thing his business (not calling people stupid, mind you, although he is very good at that, which is arguably mostly how he came to leading Goonswarm). That is to say, he spends his time winning the metagame. While the metagame* involves other things like outing spies and planting our own, often enough it comes down to persuading or beating down members of opposing alliances over public forums--the only place where both sides can see what the other has to say without being able to silence each other. There is a reason Goonswarm takes its posting seriously.**

If you can think back to RoyOfCA and Black Rise--bless you, Roy--he literally sat there and called peoples' corporation and alliance leaders stupid, corrupt cowards, and guess what happened: R I S E abandoned their space and never put up a fight. More recently, Goonswarm won the forum war against RaidenDOT. They were convinced they were already going to lose the war between us before it ever started. And then there wasn't even a war, as such, as we just steamrolled over their undefended and abandoned region in the fastest sov change Eve Online has ever seen outside of when Karttoon went on vacation.

Calling people stupid (with appropriate justification, such as "Your fit is terrible and we have told you multiple times it is terrible and you continue to use it" or "You don't check peoples' APIs when you recruit them" or "way to jump unscouted to a beacon, jesus christ") is a very valid tactic in an arsenal used for demoralizing and destroying enemies. If you just spray and pray with insults, you risk being identified as a moron yourself, so there's that to counterbalance morons sperging everywhere. There is also the notion that if you post, you should do so with proper grammar and spelling, and if you do not, u r an moron. We like to remind an morons of what they are in the hopes that they will post better.

Beating people in this game does not rely solely on blowing up their ships. It means getting them to not log in when they need to defend their stuff, or getting them to play other games because that's more fun than the thought of losing, or making them realize their leadership is utterly incompetent and corrupt and that they, the average Joe Poster, are being used and tossed aside by their supposed friends, or that their friends are idiots and Joe Poster should find a new home. Goodposters aim to destroy an enemy's morale through words. Making someone appear stupid to others or making them feel as though they have done something stupid is incredibly handy in accomplishing this.

So yes, being able to call people stupid is very important.


*You can't actually win the metagame
**this is not the actual reason


So, you want to post in a way that makes other people stop playing EVE?
On the forum that is owned by CCP (who wants to make money with EVE)?
And you want an official stamp of approval from CCP for that sort of action?

I am just asking if I understand correctly what I was reading in your post. So please correct me if I got anything wrong. Thanks in advance.
OlRotGut
#67 - 2012-06-26 18:49:13 UTC
Make posting cost ISK.

Make user rating increase or decrease said ISK fee to post

Allow the author of the thread to delete 'trolling' posts for a cost of ISK.

You suck at posting, your user rating suffers, your posts now cost xx more ISK

Just a thought and I know it could be expanded upon.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#68 - 2012-06-26 18:55:42 UTC
OlRotGut wrote:
Make posting cost ISK.

Make user rating increase or decrease said ISK fee to post

Allow the author of the thread to delete 'trolling' posts for a cost of ISK.

You suck at posting, your user rating suffers, your posts now cost xx more ISK

Just a thought and I know it could be expanded upon.





Unfortunately, this would be way too open to abuse. Hence why moderation should never be done by the OP (especially as we have OPs that troll too).
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#69 - 2012-06-26 19:00:50 UTC
I am very disappointed with CCP.

For me the EvE Online forums are an extension of the EvE Online sandbox, this type of "oppressive moderation" ruins everything.

It's butchering the EvE Online experience, it goes again it's own culture, it doesn't feel like EvE forums at all. This make me wonder about the sandbox, what's the next part that goes under the knife.


Best regards,
Vaju

The Tears Must Flow
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-06-26 19:02:27 UTC
Remigius Varagine wrote:
So, you want to post in a way that makes other people stop playing EVE?
On the forum that is owned by CCP (who wants to make money with EVE)?
And you want an official stamp of approval from CCP for that sort of action?

I am just asking if I understand correctly what I was reading in your post. So please correct me if I got anything wrong. Thanks in advance.


You are part of Goonswarm's target audience.

:get out:
Gaellia Bonaventure
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2012-06-26 19:12:33 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:




Ok, here is what I will say about the use of 'Jewgold', Jewing' and other terms of that nature. They don't add anything of value to a discussion. The very terminology is offensive to many and completely unnecessary. There are many of our players who are Jewish and they should not be subjected to phrasing which makes them and others feel uncomfortable.



Thank you for understanding this.

Bring your possibles.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#72 - 2012-06-26 19:12:56 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
I am very disappointed with CCP.

For me the EvE Online forums are an extension of the EvE Online sandbox, this type of "oppressive moderation" ruins everything.

It's butchering the EvE Online experience, it goes again it's own culture, it doesn't feel like EvE forums at all. This make me wonder about the sandbox, what's the next part that goes under the knife.


Best regards,
Vaju


We're really sorry about all this. Like we said, we're still learning and didn't mean to provoke such a large back lash. We're more than willing to listen to you and get more involved in the community so we don't just seem to come out of nowhere and get all Judge Dredd on everyone.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
None ofthe Above
#73 - 2012-06-26 19:20:22 UTC
Kudos on opening up this line of communication.

I support in general the goal of increased moderation on EVE-O, even while sometimes being frustrated that good debate seems to be squashed at times.

I appreciate the ISD and respect that they volunteer for the love of the game. The work they do particularly in rookie chat is very difficult and I can't imagine trying to keep with that. I've tried on a few occasions to help out when an ISD is not around, its very hard to keep pace and contribute. Forums moderation is definitely another difficult and often thankless task (been there, done that, burnt out).

EVE-O signal to noise ratio can be pretty bad, and it has improved since the ISD moderation has started, but its been a bumpy road with some clear problems along the way.

So, Thank You ISD. Much appreciated, recent events not withstanding.

A couple of observations and suggestions from my perspective:

  1. This is a difficult job, and not everyone is cut out for it. You do need to be prepared to get someone to stand down and get off the team. Not sure if that's applicable to the last couple of days, but in spite the urge to circle the wagons when one of your own gets in trouble, the option to thank someone for their time and telling them that its not a good fit needs to be on the table.

  2. I won't be using the word censorship here, as its inappropriate. This is a private forum and CCP has the right to set the rules of the forums. But it also needs to set them in a way that fosters the kind of community it wants. Setting policies are actions, and actions have consequences. Its perfectly reasonable that the community would want to discuss or protest policies and and specific moderations, and get upset if they feel they are prevented from doing so.

  3. The no discussing moderation rule makes some sense, but causes more difficulties than just about anything else on the forums. Perhaps a moderation discussion forum? All that in one place so discussions (something like this fine thread) can take place but not overwhelm everything else. Clear ability to dispute specific incidents and moderation policy is needed in environments like this.

  4. Moderation needs to back off at least a little, IMHO, when substantive topics are being discussed. It really sucks to see valid points squashed just because the poster got a little heated. Forums become useless if people can't communicate.

  5. Threads should probably not be locked because other posters are spamming it and its gone off topic. This opens the door to abuse as people who do not want something discussed can "shiptoast" up the thread and get it locked.

  6. There are times when a truly offensive post needs to stand. For example, during the last CSM election season several candidates made posts so bad they had to be removed by moderation (not sure that was ISD at that point, but I am sure the issue is bound to come up next year). The problem with this is it essentially white-washed the incident from the voters mind. At least one of said candidates went on to win a seat. Imagine if the news suppressed American presidential candidate Perry's "OOPS" moment as a mistake, or refused to discuss Romney's bullying incident? Lets not let moderation overwhelm important points and information. (While personal attacks against candidates, if not properly substantiated, are probably off limits and rightly moderated.) Alternatively, if it's so bad you can't leave it on the forums, maybe that person should be removed from the ballot.


Anyway, thanks for providing a place to get those thoughts off my mind. Some of these points have been bugging me for a while, but since we can't talk about moderation... haven't been brought up.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-06-26 19:37:01 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
I am very disappointed with CCP.

For me the EvE Online forums are an extension of the EvE Online sandbox, this type of "oppressive moderation" ruins everything.

It's butchering the EvE Online experience, it goes again it's own culture, it doesn't feel like EvE forums at all. This make me wonder about the sandbox, what's the next part that goes under the knife.


Best regards,
Vaju


I think i have more reason than anyone to question CCP's vision of the sandbox right now. However, let it play out a bit before judging them. I am practicing what I preach. It's the end result we all want and sometimes the process is messy.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
vasuul
BLUE M00N Fetish Group
#75 - 2012-06-26 19:37:57 UTC  |  Edited by: vasuul
CCP Navigator wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Does this mean we have to put our posts calling our enemies and their shipfits stupid in CAOD now? What about if their posts are terrible outside of CAOD?

I mean, if I can kill someone because they do dumb things on a repeated basis over a period of time, I think it is reasonable to say "Hey, you are dumb, perhaps you should have fit a second civilian autocannon on your ratting carrier, and that way you will be less dumb."

Or will I forever have to go to that bastion of true posting outside of the EveO forums, that wretched hive of scum and villainy which cannot be named but yet everyone knows the name of already, if I wish to call someone dumb?


Quick question, what is the value in calling someone 'dumb'? As someone who frequents the forums you must surely be aware that giving out an insult generally results in getting an insult back thus setting up a cycle of deterioration in the thread. Do you feel that good threads being derailed in this manner benefits the community in general? Do you find that threads of these nature go on to become threads for the betterment of the community?

Have you ever thought of instead of insulting the player in question that you might wish to help him/her instead?

Now I realize this is not going to be a heavenly forum where people constantly Hi 5 and hug each other but surely starting posts with calling people dumb is the very definition of non-productive.

I ask this because I am genuinely curious.


I was once driving with my 6 yr old nephew in the car ,when a guy cut me off i screamed STUPID IDIOT !!
Jake said "No uncle bill you shouldn't call someone that "
I said " why not "
it took him a few minutes to answer when he finally did he said "Cause if they are an idiot , they know it already, so you don't need to tell them again. "
Lol Made me smile
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2012-06-26 19:40:32 UTC
On the note of threads being locked for "going off-topic" - this is seriously poor moderation. It's one thing if the discussion has gone full circle and nothing good is coming out of it but that's not even in the same ballpark as "going off-topic." It's always the same badposters using the same sockpuppet NPC corp alts steering threads "off-topic" and getting what was previously a good discussion locked.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#77 - 2012-06-26 19:41:15 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
I am very disappointed with CCP.

For me the EvE Online forums are an extension of the EvE Online sandbox, this type of "oppressive moderation" ruins everything.

It's butchering the EvE Online experience, it goes again it's own culture, it doesn't feel like EvE forums at all. This make me wonder about the sandbox, what's the next part that goes under the knife.


Best regards,
Vaju


I think i have more reason than anyone to question CCP's vision of the sandbox right now. However, let it play out a bit before judging them. I am practicing what I preach. It's the end result we all want and sometimes the process is messy.

Thanks for being pretty cool about it. New processes are always shaky to begin with and like we said, we're still learning.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-06-26 19:43:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Tessidar
vasuul wrote:

I was once driving with my 6 yr old nephew in the car ,when a guy cut me off i screamed STUPID IDIOT !!
Jake said "No uncle bill you shouldn't call someone that "
I said " why not "
it took him a few minutes to answer when he finally did he said "Cause if they are an idiot , they know it already, so you don't need to tell them again. "
Lol Made me smile



The problem with stupid people is that they don't realize they're stupid.Ugh
Dalmont Delantee
Gecko Corp
#79 - 2012-06-26 19:47:24 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Holy One wrote:
Spin. What you want CCP is a closed environment where naysayers and critics can be snuffed out in favour of rabid fanbois.

You want to avoid what has happened the last three years with your terrible expansions - people vocally and vociferously criticising your business decisions and the individuals responsible for them.

You want censorship and control and those two things will only result in a polarisation of game design and false confidence in your feedback quality and bias. Historically the Eve 'community' has been quick and sharp to point out your poor business and game design decisions and has been highly critical at key times in your business direction - which has saved you on several occasions.

The new 'direction' is merely going to result in an extension of the hubris bubble we see historically you like to perpetuate internally. Over time you will drive away anyone who disagrees with the 'herd' and force them to take their concerns and their passion to 'other' forums which your staff have no interest in monitoring.

Every entertainment media developer who has in the past opted for a highly moderated environment has seen their communities stagnate and whither. If you deny Evil Online's true nature and ignore those many tens of thousands of individuals who decry the constant and ham fisted attempts to destroy their faith in you, instead opting to surround yourself with sycophants, pedants and casuals: goooood fight.

Eve is hard. It is also full of foul mouthed bad people. Your business model as a niche product catering to Evil Online wannabes, results in an libertarian, highly vocal and irreverent player base. If you allow the closed ranks of the bears to drone out any dissenters then I predict sad and embarrassing things for you as a company going forward.

You won't make Eve stronger or the game better or attract more carebears by excluding the very hard core nucleous of angry, anti social and vocal nerds who prop up this mmo from populating and shitting up your forums. Whoever it is that has had this brain fart of 'micro' managing away all criticism of you operating procedures, policies and decision making processes, doesn't get it. In just the very same sad and predictable way people like me would be quick to point out before ISD n3rd edits it away.

It starts with an attempt to order and ends with complete censorship. The worse most subjective and inconsistent sort.


This game is mostly populated by middle age, educated males... yet your post makes it sound like it's populated by unruly, pre-pubescent tantrum throughing morons....

I'm sure there is a middle ground, where the obnoxious minority are limited in a reasonable manner.... CCP has a history of letting long, venomous threads vent player frustrations over their business decisions and game design choices. Why do you think this is going to end??? If anything, setting up a clear set of guidelines on how ISD is to handle player outcry is a good thing, so long as it's not a blatant censorship of disenfranchised sentiments.


Sadly most trolls act like unruly, pre-pubescent tantrum throwng morons. Thats why there were threads banned and people warned etc.

There are a lot of forum warriors that have hissy fits because someone said no.
Pipa Porto
#80 - 2012-06-26 19:50:02 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:


Hi Crunchie Attuxors,

I want to address a few of your points if I may. Firstly, the ISD team have absolutely no banning powers whatsoever. All bans from the forums are issued by the Community team as are all new forum rules. The latest rules we have are to provide a better environment for Developers and players to talk. That is our primary goal.

It is to be expected that some volunteers (even seasoned CCP staff for that matter) will drop the ball from time to time. In regards to ISD members, I view this as a training opportunity to make these guys and girls better and ensure they communicate much more effectively with the Community.

Obviously we will continue to conduct audits and ensure that CCL members revive the best support possible from us to do the best possible job for everyone.


This was not "from time to time," that ISD had been exhibiting absolutely atrocious moderation for at least a week that I noticed, and other ISDs have been poor to (at best) middling, and I'm not usually all that observant of what happens upstream of the discussion front. If you didn't catch onto this well before it hit its boiling point yesterday, why should we have any confidence that you will catch onto it in the future?

I understand that the horrific quality of the moderation might be because the ISDs have their hands tied behind their back, but that doesn't excuse the result. Look at the way Zymurgist (I pick on him a lot because he's really good at moderation) ran the forums. A thread would be going haywire and he'd put it back on the rails without needing any edits or locks. This was because we respected him; not because he had a Blue tag (though that helps), but because over the course of his tenure, he proved, time and time again that he could handle himself and his mod powers.

I understand that volunteer moderation looks like a cheap way to keep your forums in line, but like someone said in another thread, EvE-O has managed to hold onto the bulk of discussion in a way that no other MMO forum has. This is because the rules have always been slightly lax. Look at the front page of GD. The "Like and Get Likes" thread, the "X the Avatar above you" threads all very clearly has no content, but they've been here since the new forums came out and they're here to stay.

You can moderate a forum this size in one of two ways. You can go with a light touch and a heaping helping of charm (call it, Zymurgisting), or you can try to crack down. The second way only works if you can lock and delete threads as fast, or faster than they can be created and you're willing to drive everyone off to forums that Zymurgist.

You've seen what trying to crack down does. You've seen what happens when you have moderators who have earned no personal respect trying to be heavy handed. And you've seen what happens when it gets out of hand.

Blue tags get you your foot in the door; we give you the benefit of the doubt which gives you some time to build up a reputation as a moderator. We know ISDs are EvE players and volunteers. We have certain ideas of what it means to be a volunteer at a for-profit company. ISDs have to hit the ground running and tiptoe very, very lightly until they can develop a reputation (which is impossible if, as I suspect, they're not allowed to talk normally on the forums).

*Tips for ISD Stensson: not everything that mentions your name is a personal attack, and rising to the bait and thanking people for their "support" is a really, really bad idea.*
PS: If giving individual advice is a personal attack Ugh

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto