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The future of Community and CCL

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Pipa Porto
#581 - 2012-09-15 03:10:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
ISD Praetoxx wrote:
Just for the record, I would like to add that the CCL team is watched very closely by CCP and if/when required, CCP will intervene should they feel it necessary, this includes speaking with CCL members IF they should step over the line. We do not have free reign on the forums to moderate threads as we please. CCP has laid down strict rules and policies that all ISD members agreed to follow and uphold when they volunteered to join the program, this includes having our main characters closely monitored by CCP for any hint of foul play or breach of the rules. We are governed by exactly the same rules as everyone else.


So, you're saying that a CCP employee checks every single moderation action you take and takes time to review it for appropriateness?

If not, why have we been denied the tools necessary to detect your moderation actions and report inappropriate ones?

Quote:
EVE Online has a PEGI 12 rating, and as such, CCP have a legal obligation to ensure that any content contained within the game (forums/website included) is suitable for persons aged as young as 12 years old. EVE provides a great opportunity for families to enjoy the game and above all else, EVE Online provides an escape from all the stresses that RL throws at us. Why would you want to come home after a long day at the office, just to sign onto the forums to read a bunch of threads that seem to represent your day at the office.


PEGI Online Code wrote:
Removal of inappropriate content
License holders will use their best endeavours to ensure that online services under their control are kept free of content which is illegal, offensive, racist, degrading, corrupting, threatening, obscene or which might permanently impair the development of young people.


So, you're ready to explain how every one of your moderation actions was to remove content that would have "permanently impaired the development of young people" or how it specifically fits into one of the other categories there? If you're not, you can go ahead and stop waving your "it's PEGI's fault*" flag.

Nobody's arguing with CCP's right to remove cursing, National Socialist (their 4 letter acronym get's x'd out) references, threats, etc. We are saying that ISDs have a tendency to run well past that standard. We are simply asking for a mechanism to allow us to efficiently respond to overreach by ISDs.

*CCP is under no obligation to maintain a PEGI 12 rating. They can easily get themselves rated at something higher which might be more appropriate for the nature of EVE Online's average player age (IIRC, something like 28 years old).

Quote:
The next time your post/thread is moderated. Take a good look at it and have a think about why it was moderated. How would others view it, would they be offended? Is it suitable for a 12 year old? Is it even understandable?

I hope I have been successful in defusing alot of the hate and misunderstanding toward the ISD's. Please take a moment to try and understand that what we are doing is for the benefit of the entire community. Even 12 year old Timmy who cannot wait to fly his first Falcon.

Fly safe and post smart!


I have no idea if my post gets moderated. I'm not obsessive compulsive and I do not regularly comb my posting history with EVE-Search open in another window to cross-reference for deleted posts. At the moment, that's what is required to discover moderation actions affecting your posts.

Anyway, I'll try this again, We are not talking about the moderation of obscene material. We're all on board with that.

We're talking about the instances where moderation stifles active discussion simply because it might be a contentious topic. One recent example would be the James 315 CSM thread, where (once it got moved to the appropriate location) was perfectly in line with the forum rules (aside from the trolls trying to derail the thread). Is it CCP's policy to reward such trolls by locking threads that said trolls are trying to get locked?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#582 - 2012-09-15 03:13:00 UTC
RomeStar wrote:
Answer me this... I recetnly commented on a post about F2P inwhich I mentioned World Of Tanks and how much fun it is to play then I typed "W_O_P" with no space between letters which stands for World of Planes and guess what it was censored. Why was that censored on my post Im really curious. I understand some moderation but for crying out loud


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/***

Your name, in combination with the obscure racial slur you happen to have a question about strikes me as humorous.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
John'eh
Asteroid Belt Protection Services
#583 - 2012-09-15 03:45:31 UTC
ISD Type40 is censoring my posts, they are being edited or deleted without my consent and I have been forced to file a petition as a result. I want him punished and want an explanation, as as I feel he is abusing his powers to censor attacks on the goons, as I have tried repeatably to tell people what is going on and all such attempts have been silenced in clear violation of the rules.
TRUE ZER0
SILENT INC
#584 - 2012-09-15 04:28:07 UTC
John'eh wrote:
ISD Type40 is censoring my posts, they are being edited or deleted without my consent and I have been forced to file a petition as a result. I want him punished and want an explanation, as as I feel he is abusing his powers to censor attacks on the goons, as I have tried repeatably to tell people what is going on and all such attempts have been silenced in clear violation of the rules.

Good luck bro. As one of his previous victims I can tell you all your getting is banned.
John'eh
Asteroid Belt Protection Services
#585 - 2012-09-15 05:08:10 UTC
The biggest problem I have is that my posts are edited to remove things or to edit what I said, for no reason other than to cast my post in a negative light as otherwise, it wouldn't be anything negative. They have to remove half a sentence to make it seem like anything bad, but they do it, and they they claim the edited version is what set them off even when the ISD guy is the one posting things he shouldnt.. as me.

This is an abuse of power.
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#586 - 2012-09-15 05:09:56 UTC
Yeah, that ISD40 needs to go.

After the recent attack on the US embassy I posted some admittedly strong opinions about the current event.
Yeah, it was somewhat political (critical of Hillary Clinton and her boss), and I slipped an fbomb in there. OK, I was kind of pissed off, but against the rules, probably right to have been locked.

What I didn't appreciate was ISD40 replacing the post with an accusation of racism. Disliking the president isn't automatically racism, nor is suggesting that Marines should be posted in dangerous Arab nations so they can kill or deter Islamic terrorists.

Yet the entire post was removed, the thread title edited from "Hillary Clinton, Two words: Hire Blackwater. Now." to LOCKED.
and a snotty note left behind which implied that I made racial attacks.

These forums have taken a big turn for the worse lately and these new 'enforcers'' are a big part of the problem.
Ghazu
#587 - 2012-09-15 07:29:52 UTC
John'eh wrote:
The biggest problem I have is that my posts are edited to remove things or to edit what I said, for no reason other than to cast my post in a negative light as otherwise, it wouldn't be anything negative. They have to remove half a sentence to make it seem like anything bad, but they do it, and they they claim the edited version is what set them off even when the ISD guy is the one posting things he shouldnt.. as me.

This is an abuse of power.


explain this "I posted a thread detailing how goons are profitiing from the alledged death of one of thier members who has a history of faking his own death for Goons benifit, and a member of the ISD is censoring any attempt by me to talk about the subject in a respectfull manner, as I feel the goons are being disrespectfull of the dead and I want to bring the topic up for the community to discuss." do you have any proof, really? a history of faking his death?

apart from breaking many forum rules your post is plain stupid.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Pipa Porto
#588 - 2012-09-15 07:49:36 UTC
I want to be clear as well, nobody's arguing that the ISD's shouldn't be deleting the posts and locking the threads of the couple of people who posted above me (besides Ghazu).

John'eh, Bart Starr, and TRUE ZER0, we have EVESearch. We can easily look up your posts and discover exactly what flavor of scum (or scum sympathizer) you are.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Anslo
Scope Works
#589 - 2012-09-15 14:27:46 UTC
Ghazu wrote:
useless crap


Post with your main or dont post at all.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Anslo
Scope Works
#590 - 2012-09-15 14:30:51 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
I want to be clear as well, nobody's arguing that the ISD's shouldn't be deleting the posts and locking the threads of the couple of people who posted above me (besides Ghazu).

John'eh, Bart Starr, and TRUE ZER0, we have EVESearch. We can easily look up your posts and discover exactly what flavor of scum (or scum sympathizer) you are.


Scum or not, they have the the right to freedom of speech. By saying person x deserves free speech but not person y as their topic is "scum" (which judging by their descriptions, they aren't), you're just as bad as ISD TYPE40

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#591 - 2012-09-15 15:55:40 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
I want to be clear as well, nobody's arguing that the ISD's shouldn't be deleting the posts and locking the threads of the couple of people who posted above me (besides Ghazu).

John'eh, Bart Starr, and TRUE ZER0, we have EVESearch. We can easily look up your posts and discover exactly what flavor of scum (or scum sympathizer) you are.


Scum or not, they have the the right to freedom of speech. By saying person x deserves free speech but not person y as their topic is "scum" (which judging by their descriptions, they aren't), you're just as bad as ISD TYPE40

No they don't.

It is a privilege to post on these forums, not a right. This is a privately owned forum. Rules of any given country do not apply.
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#592 - 2012-09-15 17:17:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Bart Starr
I never claimed a right to free speech. I'm just saying these forums are a lot worse since the ISD's showed up.
And my post probably did deserve a lock (although in the past political threads in OOPE were usually tolerated for at least a few pages). But being called out as a racist by an ISD, when no racial content was demonstrated is going a bit far. (and no, not everybody knows about EVE Search)

Of course, ISDs do not even enforce their own rules.....

Witness the multiple 'Avatar above me' threadnaughts that are content free.
Witness the 'Like and Get Likes' thread.

Clear violations of forum rules, yet tolerated despite complaints. (Oh, but complaint threads are quickly locked.)

So, I am not in favor of strict forum rule enforcement - but I can deal with it. But strict and uneven rule enforcement, combined with ridiculous editing of context......

ISDs must go.
Pipa Porto
#593 - 2012-09-15 17:56:16 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
I want to be clear as well, nobody's arguing that the ISD's shouldn't be deleting the posts and locking the threads of the couple of people who posted above me (besides Ghazu).

John'eh, Bart Starr, and TRUE ZER0, we have EVESearch. We can easily look up your posts and discover exactly what flavor of scum (or scum sympathizer) you are.


Scum or not, they have the the right to freedom of speech. By saying person x deserves free speech but not person y as their topic is "scum" (which judging by their descriptions, they aren't), you're just as bad as ISD TYPE40


The have the right to speech free from any Governmental constraint (at least in countries I'd consider living in). CCP is not a national government. CCP has the right to constrain speech on their private soapbox because that constraint is a form of Speech on CCP's part, and CCP has the right to freely speak.

And calling them scum (check EVESearch and see if you disagree) is the other side of the free speech coin. Freedom of Speech means it's your right to say whatever ignorant drivel you want, AND then it's everyone else's right to shout you off the stage or simply set up another stage across from you and shout the counter to your specific drivel as loud as they can.

Freedom of Speech is not the right to say what you want when you want without social repercussions or being exposed to opposing viewpoints.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#594 - 2012-09-15 18:05:18 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
I never claimed a right to free speech. I'm just saying these forums are a lot worse since the ISD's showed up.
And my post probably did deserve a lock (although in the past political threads in OOPE were usually tolerated for at least a few pages). But being called out as a racist by an ISD, when no racial content was demonstrated is going a bit far. (and no, not everybody knows about EVE Search)


Go to EVESearch, find the post you posted, and re-read the first sentence. It's the 11th post down on the view posts list from your stats page.*

Now, try to figure out why you got called out.


*For normal, civilized people, only do this if you're interested in knowing exactly how far off base Bart is when he claims "No Racial Content." It's pretty standard Tea-Party Rally stuff, if you're American and have heard of that movement.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#595 - 2012-09-16 02:57:36 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:
I never claimed a right to free speech. I'm just saying these forums are a lot worse since the ISD's showed up.
And my post probably did deserve a lock (although in the past political threads in OOPE were usually tolerated for at least a few pages). But being called out as a racist by an ISD, when no racial content was demonstrated is going a bit far. (and no, not everybody knows about EVE Search)


Go to EVESearch, find the post you posted, and re-read the first sentence. It's the 11th post down on the view posts list from your stats page.*

Now, try to figure out why you got called out.


*For normal, civilized people, only do this if you're interested in knowing exactly how far off base Bart is when he claims "No Racial Content." It's pretty standard Tea-Party Rally stuff, if you're American and have heard of that movement.


OK, read it. Now explain to me where the racism lies?
Calling Obama dickless?
Calling him a Muslim sympathizer?
Saying he cries at the thought of rampaging Libyans being shot dead?

Angry, sure. Political, sure. Lock-worthy, sure. Racist? Not at all.
I understand calling people 'racist' makes self-righteous leftwingers instantly pop a boner, but its pretty sad when ISD reps simply slap the label on anything they don't like.

Or when posters start trying to instigate flame wars by calling other posters scumbags. (I believe that is called 'trolling' and is a forum violation - but don't worry, the rules are selectively enforced here)
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#596 - 2012-09-17 18:43:22 UTC
ISD Praetoxx wrote:
Just for the record, I would like to add that the CCL team is watched very closely by CCP and if/when required, CCP will intervene should they feel it necessary, this includes speaking with CCL members IF they should step over the line. We do not have free reign on the forums to moderate threads as we please. CCP has laid down strict rules and policies that all ISD members agreed to follow and uphold when they volunteered to join the program, this includes having our main characters closely monitored by CCP for any hint of foul play or breach of the rules. We are governed by exactly the same rules as everyone else.

Like you, we love the game and love the community. We are trying to do our part to make it better for everyone.

To some pilots, it may seem like we are just abusing our 'powers' and editing threads/posts as we see fit. This is not the case and could not be further from the truth.

EVE Online has a PEGI 12 rating, and as such, CCP have a legal obligation to ensure that any content contained within the game (forums/website included) is suitable for persons aged as young as 12 years old. EVE provides a great opportunity for families to enjoy the game and above all else, EVE Online provides an escape from all the stresses that RL throws at us. Why would you want to come home after a long day at the office, just to sign onto the forums to read a bunch of threads that seem to represent your day at the office.

Come home, UNPLUG from the hectic day, and enjoy your evening blowing up space ships, or mining an asteroid belt with your corporation. Explore the depths of a wormhole you just discovered. Leave all the aggro and stress at the door.

The next time your post/thread is moderated. Take a good look at it and have a think about why it was moderated. How would others view it, would they be offended? Is it suitable for a 12 year old? Is it even understandable?

I hope I have been successful in defusing alot of the hate and misunderstanding toward the ISD's. Please take a moment to try and understand that what we are doing is for the benefit of the entire community. Even 12 year old Timmy who cannot wait to fly his first Falcon.

Fly safe and post smart!


Your skill in deflection has increased by 1.

Type40 going on a rulebook crazed nerdfest locking rage had nothing to do with pg-13 anything.

I'm glad to see he's been reined in though.

ISD's moderation has improved in the past 2 weeks, which is to say you've been doing less of it.

Not today spaghetti.
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#597 - 2012-09-18 10:29:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Eshtir
As i promised you an ISD Seminar with and about the CCL ISD team. We now have a date and time for it.

Linky!

October 13th 2200 Eve Time

Looking forward to see you there!

ISD Eshtir

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons

Interstellar Services Department
Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#598 - 2012-09-18 12:32:43 UTC
RomeStar wrote:
Answer me this... I recetnly commented on a post about F2P inwhich I mentioned World Of Tanks and how much fun it is to play then I typed "W_O_P" with no space between letters which stands for World of Planes and guess what it was censored. Why was that censored on my post Im really curious. I understand some moderation but for crying out loud


W_O_P also a nick name for Italians, probably why is blocked, in this PC gone mad world. I want Peter from Family Guy moderating .... down with PC takes the humor out of life......



Tal


I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk
Pipa Porto
#599 - 2012-09-18 19:11:24 UTC
ISD Eshtir wrote:
As i promised you an ISD Seminar with and about the CCL ISD team. We now have a date and time for it.

Linky!

October 13th 2200 Eve Time

Looking forward to see you there!


I was under the impression that ISD Seminars were for ISDs to improve their skills and understanding. That's why it sounded good when it was announced 2 Months ago*.

TBH, I don't see what value in an outward facing Speech/Town Hall/Symposium/however you have the thing structured has for the goal of improved moderation from the ISD team**.

*I know it was Summer and all that, but seriously?

**Really, the best thing I can think of for that is the same stern instruction many first time posters recieve in other forums: Lurk More.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#600 - 2012-09-18 19:15:55 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
ISD Eshtir wrote:
As i promised you an ISD Seminar with and about the CCL ISD team. We now have a date and time for it.

Linky!

October 13th 2200 Eve Time

Looking forward to see you there!


I was under the impression that ISD Seminars were for ISDs to improve their skills and understanding. That's why it sounded good when it was announced 2 Months ago*.

TBH, I don't see what value in an outward facing Speech/Town Hall/Symposium/however you have the thing structured has for the goal of improved moderation from the ISD team**.

*I know it was Summer and all that, but seriously?

**Really, the best thing I can think of for that is the same stern instruction many first time posters recieve in other forums: Lurk More.


You do not have to attend if you do not want to. But i know there are some people out there that would love to see this happen, and that is why we do it.

ISD Eshtir

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons

Interstellar Services Department