EVE General Discussion

Personally I prefer the damage control to the complete ignoring of a problem.

No he hasn't.

From what I've seen, that's exactly what happened. CCP hired volunteers who hadn't the slightest idea of how the community functioned.

And we're not talking about a rookie mistake, though there were several in handling this, we're talking about... I honestly don't know how to classify it. Things were being locked/pruned/edited for which no argument could be made for a rule violation. That's not a rookie mistake, that's an agenda.

Hiring someone gives them a measure of accountability, and gives them the time to dedicate to getting good at it and a certain permanence that lets us think that it's worth working to fix them if they're not great out of the box. Anonymous volunteers have no measure of accountability (to us), have very little to lose if they screw up, have little time to dedicate to getting good at a hard job (given limited time, the impulse is to do things even when the right thing to do is sit down, shut up, and read the forums), and have little sense of permanence. Add to that the bonus point of not having the automatic respect we give to blue tags (because we all know that, whatever hat they're wearing at the moment, ISDs are players first), and you have a recipe for an almost insurmountable learning cliff.

I disagree. I think volunteers can be as committed and as vested to do the job right. And employees can be as faulty and as biased as a schoolyard bully.

One thing has nothing to with the other.

I have worked extensively in the non-profit sector, and I can say from experience that is the case.

The problem here was, and to an extent seems to be, two-fold:

1) Volunteers were not properly trained and guided and supervised.

2) The changes were introduced with the finesse of a bull in a china shop, with a "better to apologize than to ask permission" attitude.

Both are squarely CCP's fault. I have also seen this in volunteer situations. The best volunteer programs are those who treat volunteering like a paid job - training, interviews, supervision, structure - and make it clear that volunteering is no different in expectations and process than being a paid employee. The sole difference should be scheduling flexibility, but still, scheduling is required.

And in this thread, interestingly enough, ISDs have been more forthcoming, helpful, apologetic, and seemingly understanding of why this is a situation.

Whereas all a CCP employee did was encourage an obvious troll to launch into a series of increasingly nasty personal attacks, including a threat of physical harm to another poster - based on a purported support for anything CCP does. Because employees are people too, and who doesn't love a bully on one's side?

So we have evidence, right there, that the ISD can work. It didn't, but we have to see if it does. I trust CCP can do right, but they seriously need to increase their competence in the planning and implementation stage: people are not bits of code that you can patch when a new problem arises.

As I have said, the problem here was that there was no rhyme and reason, that some ISD people did seem to have a personal vendetta, and that topics that were obviously within a reasonable interpretation of the rules were locked, but other topics that were outside a reasonable interpretation of the rules were not. The spectacle of half the topics in GD locked at one point was - even if necessary from a "rules" standpoint - was a failure of basic customer service standards.

In other words, the problem was that a lack of transparency led to a lack of trust that led to a lack of communication that lead to this thread.

And hopefully CCP and the ISD can separate the chaff from the wheat in this thread, and realize that while in the game and the metagame its us vs them, in the real life there a thousands of people paying their salaries with millions of hard currency and they deserve, and expect, to be treated with respect.

Lastly, an Icelandic friend told me a good old phrase in Icelandic:

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar.

The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Perhaps we all need to act our age... and as someone pointed out, one of the key differences between this game and other MMOs is that most of us are quite old. We know the rules, and we know the exceptions. CCP should also trust that, and not go for the lowest common denominator.

I mean, even if a player was 18 in 2003, he or she is 26 or 27 today, not old, but not some immature teenager either...

Ok, I shall take my time with this reply, so I don't miss anything. Please bare in mind that these are just my personal opinions based on available facts and my own view of what I have seen occurring, and in no way am I saying that you are not entitled to your own opinion.

First up is your assertion that the ISD somehow have an agenda. The mistakes that were made would likely as not have been worse had the new moderators been from outside of the EVE community, which is precisely why these ones ARE part of the community. Though I can understand why you and others would be upset at certain actions that have been taken, in my honest opinion the only people displaying an agenda are those of you evading your bans, posting on alts, and continuing to attack those you perceive to have "slighted" you.

As for accountability, again I can understand the need for this in any community. However you appear to be operating under the mistaken assumption that just because the volunteers are not paid, that they are somehow not "employed" and not dedicated, this is just your opinion and should not be touted as fact. The ISD are held to account by CCP, who are after all their employers, and as such there is no need nor reason for them to be accountable in the same sense to the player base.

Now, when it comes to the mistakes that have been made, as I pointed out earlier, it was somewhat inevitable given that these people are new to their jobs. They need time to adjust to this new situation, and in return they need the community to be patient and understanding. We all have to work together, not just expect people to be "awesome" straight away. The only real way to ensure that the new staff integrate fully is if we ALL work together and look after each other, and a little less of the self entitled attitude would go a long way.

Now for the last part of your post. The idea that the ISD staff, who have been hand picked and vetted by CCP themselves for this precise task, are somehow worthy of less respect than "Blue Tags" simply because they are also players. It might serve you well to remember that a great deal of the "Blue Tags" whom you respect also started as players, and some in fact were also volunteers, hopefully that may alter your perception of things a little.

When all is said and done, having more people on board will be a great help and a boon to the EVE family. We all just need to sit back and think before we say something that we may end up regretting.

Empty quoting pipa's post felt wrong.

But I cant put it any better.

So clearly what we need is for CCP to tell us they are moving away from the old to a more strict white washed forums. If thats what they want then that is fine. Clearly both sides have their supports. But CCP you need to tell us what you want out of the forums. That way if you do want the white wash those of us who have called this place home because of the openness of this place can stop wasting our time fighting for something you dont want.

8 years of posting with the main that was banned when this boiled over. Never once did I have any doubts about this place being a very open and welcoming place. Where newbs and veterans alike got to ask dumb questions, get made fun of a little, then given an answer. Its been home to some amazing things over the years that would never have gotten a start without the openness and interaction with the developers.


So again. Clearly this is a divided forum and thats no fun.

Again you post unsubstantiated rumors and untrue personal opinion as factual truth, constantly trying to incite rage. Obviously you won't stop and neither will I. Guess the only way now to deal with your constant insinuations and personal attacks is to use the appropriate tools available.

This is what tends to happen with relaxed moderation from a trusted source. A friendly community that acts the way friends do (I may be an extreme example, but most of my friends and I act a lot like we hate each other).

I will say that I agree that there has been a disturbing trend of real nastiness coming to the forums with comparisons to nasty RL people. The answer to that is to go after those posts directly, not to try to quash everything that's not 100% cuddly-uddly.

GD was 0.0 anarchy , now in transition to becoming lowsec.

ccl are gate guns, they need some tuning.

1 on 1 : PVP at it's finest
Jumping in a 1 on 1 to help a corpmate: Still pvp, enemy should have planed better
Blobbing: PVP in large numbers
Ganking: PVP an unsuspecting target
Market Scams: PVP while docked
AFK Cloaking: PVP while I sleep
Forum Wars: PVP while I'm at work