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Is Risk-Free Lowsec/Nullsec Travel Appropriate in EvE???
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Qolde
Scrambled Eggs Inc.
#21 - 2012-06-25 17:59:03 UTC
Even if it were changed, it would just change how caps are flown. The people always find a way. Instead of cynoing right on the station, people would just have to find empty systems (not hard) and cyno to safes, kill the cyno ship, jettison a new one from the SMB, warp to a non cyno tainted safe, and cloak up. The amount of damage needed to kill a carrier from the 30 second session timer days was similar to the amount of time it would take to kill your own cyno in a safe spot and warp to another safe to cloak. Sure, you'd have to have more bookmarks and it would take a little more time. But it wouldn't get anymore caps killed.

[Nidhoggur, Safety First]
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If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#22 - 2012-06-25 17:59:26 UTC
Claim sov, put up a cyno jammers, problem solved. Or... Lure the offending ship into a hotdrop ambush. Eve is hatd, thete should be no easy carrier killmail I win botton. Figure out a way or find other targets.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#23 - 2012-06-25 18:01:44 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
I can fly thru low-sec risk free in a pod, or cloaky. Perhaps we should do away with warp to 0 and cloaks? Shocked


Traveling gate-to-gate in a pod is an easy way to die... one Disko ship and you're going to wake up in a clone facility. It's not risk free.

As for cloaks.... Cloakers mitigate most risks to their ships with cloaks, and I think cyno's should mitigate most risks by traveling from point A to Point Z bypassing the risks in between. At the same point in time, a cloaker is still at risk of getting decloaked, it can be caught in bubbles, and it can't cloak next to a station, and traveling in a cloak ship is far from risk free.

I think a small nerf to cyno's can have the same effect.... Just prevent cynoing a ship within dock range of a station, and suddenly there is a reasonable risk to cyno travel....


Caught in bubbles in low-sec?

And lol at your transparent attempt to justify this.
Face it, you aren't capable of PvP, or you wouldn't be worried about getting enough carrrier kills....Oops



Forgive me, I'm a PvP Noob!!!. WHen you boast a better PvP record than I, you're transparent troll jabs might bring a tear to my eye....

My point was warping in a POD has risks, and using a cloak to travel, even in lowsec, has risks. They are what I'd deam reasonable risks. And I think cyno travel should also have reasonable risks...
Ephenos
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#24 - 2012-06-25 18:06:56 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Claim sov, put up a cyno jammers, problem solved. Or... Lure the offending ship into a hotdrop ambush. Eve is hatd, thete should be no easy carrier killmail I win botton. Figure out a way or find other targets.



What...exactly is this supposed to solve?


Hey, Cynojammer is up, now nobody can hotdrop me when I cyno in...ah wait a minute.

Now I can't cyno in either.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#25 - 2012-06-25 18:07:34 UTC
Qolde wrote:
Even if it were changed, it would just change how caps are flown. The people always find a way. Instead of cynoing right on the station, people would just have to find empty systems (not hard) and cyno to safes, kill the cyno ship, jettison a new one from the SMB, warp to a non cyno tainted safe, and cloak up. The amount of damage needed to kill a carrier from the 30 second session timer days was similar to the amount of time it would take to kill your own cyno in a safe spot and warp to another safe to cloak. Sure, you'd have to have more bookmarks and it would take a little more time. But it wouldn't get anymore caps killed.

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I would approach it a littel differently to keep my capitals safe, but that's besides the point. The point is, suddenly you actually have to think about the risks to your cynoing ship, as they can't travel risk free anymore.... I don't want to prevent people from being able to mitigate the risks of cyno travel, I jsut want there to be risks that should be mitigated!!!!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#26 - 2012-06-25 18:13:33 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Claim sov, put up a cyno jammers, problem solved. Or... Lure the offending ship into a hotdrop ambush. Eve is hatd, thete should be no easy carrier killmail I win botton. Figure out a way or find other targets.


Your post makes little to no sense....

If you cyno jam a system, you can't cyno in any ships....
Also, I'm not asking for easy carrier killmails... . I didn't say you can only cyno in at some unprotected, predetermined, easy-to-camp location. I'm asking for there to actually be a risk to cyno travel!!!

I also understand why peopel don't want to have risk associated with moving their expensive capital ships.... but really, why should cyno travel be riskless? Travel fit a carrier, combat fit a carrier, logistics fit a carrier.... these choices are irrelevent when moving a capital in today's eve because when cynoing from station to station, there are NO pragmatic risks....
Qolde
Scrambled Eggs Inc.
#27 - 2012-06-25 18:16:10 UTC
I'll have to admit, in lowsec it is kind of easy. I remember being wardecced by a triboxer who sat on our station with 2 carriers and a vulture. This was in the 30 second timer days, and it was annoying that he always had enough time to deaggress and dock let alone wait out a 30 second session timer. Mass based aggression timers would be nice for use against those who use crappy dock mechanics during a battle they volunteered for. Making it too easy to kill travelling carriers would be lame.

If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#28 - 2012-06-25 18:23:54 UTC
Qolde wrote:
I'll have to admit, in lowsec it is kind of easy. I remember being wardecced by a triboxer who sat on our station with 2 carriers and a vulture. This was in the 30 second timer days, and it was annoying that he always had enough time to deaggress and dock let alone wait out a 30 second session timer. Mass based aggression timers would be nice for use against those who use crappy dock mechanics during a battle they volunteered for. Making it too easy to kill travelling carriers would be lame.

Won't somebody think of the poor jump freighters?

No but seriously, nice post. I wouldn't be opposed to blocking cynos on station if there were variable aggression timers, because it would give you time to hot drop off grid then warp in and kill the carriers.

Although I'd still just fit nothing but webs on my cyno alts' ships, and probably buy nomads for my jf alt too. Jump in, triple web and warp. Dunno what the align time is with nomads and three webs, but I doubt it would be very long.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#29 - 2012-06-25 18:26:08 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

I'm still not sold on blocking cynos on station though, I like hot dropping idiots who aggress in carriers on the undock too much. Maybe if it came along side a change to aggression timers based on mass.

I also think it would just result in people finding empty systems to cyno in to, or setting up a POS in every system along route.

*EDIT: I forgot to add, you claim friendly station to friendly station. Outside of sov null sec current mechanics make it trivial to cyno right into hostile stations without risk. Or travel right through the most heavily camped places in the game without breaking up the camp.


I don't want to remove hotdropping idiot carrier pilots that agress on the undock.... I would just prevent the hotdropped ships from landing at zero on the station.... I know dock ranges for capitals are now HUGE, and I would hope, in practice, a cyno alteration would result in the hotdrop landing ~5km's from the station docking perimeter, which hopefully is no farther than 20-30 km's from the idiotic carrier pilot.... In short, I certainly don't want to remove the risks to people agressing on station (nor prevent it)....

Imagine the added risks to the hotdroppers if they bring in capital ships outside of dock range... It could escalate quite nicely!!!

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#30 - 2012-06-25 18:37:05 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
hm.... some time ago someone said "suiciding hulks in empire and loosing ship to concord is a risk". What is the difference?


its not, its a business expense. If you had a chance to escape there would be risk as youd have a chance to lose it, not a certainty of losing it.

risk
noun
1.
exposure to the chance of injury or loss; a hazard or dangerous chance:

If theres is no CHANCE there is no RISK

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#31 - 2012-06-25 18:38:06 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Imagine the added risks to the hotdroppers if they bring in capital ships outside of dock range... It could escalate quite nicely!!!

As long as a couple of titans can driveby doomsday them and :frogout:.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#32 - 2012-06-25 18:41:35 UTC
I thought this was about the Uninterdictable Tengu Fit... I leave disappointed.

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"
Innywuhne
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-06-25 19:07:31 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
*shoots self in logistics foot*

Gizz, what does the Agony logistical chain have to say about this incredibly bad idea? Should JF pilots have to jump through even more hoops to play this ******* game that already turns even the simplest things into gigantic pains in the ass? I don't see your lazy ass leaving the rats behind to perform overwatch every time something needs to get brought to the station. For the professional couriers, this would be the end of their corp, as it is impossible to recruit escort pilots on the scale necessary to protect 30+ jump freighter pilots in every corner of EVE. Did you even give that some thought? These corps are opening up losec and nosec to players who would never have the ability to do it themselves. Nosec/losec gets more targets overall than your foolish desire to add more JFs to your killboard.

I'd like to see you or other Agony pilots, in the interest of fairness and sportsmanship and whatever the ****, intentionally light cynos 10k+ off station. I know you're not doing it now. In fact, I triple dog dare your corp to begin doing it. Perhaps I should give this list of Agony JF pilots (incorp and out) and cynos (incorp and out) to someone who can put it to good use.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#34 - 2012-06-25 19:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Cynoing a carrier onto a station.... Not Risky....


We have managed to kill a good few.


Please enlighten us, I really don't see how a competent carrier pilot loses their carrier when cynoing from one station to another station.



Thats the trick. Do you have any idea just how many incompetent capital pilots there are out there?
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#35 - 2012-06-25 19:36:21 UTC
Innywuhne wrote:
Gizz, what does the Agony logistical chain have to say about this incredibly bad idea? Should JF pilots have to jump through even more hoops to play this ******* game that already turns even the simplest things into gigantic pains in the ass? I don't see your lazy ass leaving the rats behind to perform overwatch every time something needs to get brought to the station. For the professional couriers, this would be the end of their corp, as it is impossible to recruit escort pilots on the scale necessary to protect 30+ jump freighter pilots in every corner of EVE. Did you even give that some thought? These corps are opening up losec and nosec to players who would never have the ability to do it themselves. Nosec/losec gets more targets overall than your foolish desire to add more JFs to your killboard.

I'd like to see you or other Agony pilots, in the interest of fairness and sportsmanship and whatever the ****, intentionally light cynos 10k+ off station. I know you're not doing it now. In fact, I triple dog dare your corp to begin doing it. Perhaps I should give this list of Agony JF pilots (incorp and out) and cynos (incorp and out) to someone who can put it to good use.

As a JF and carrier pilot myself I can honestly say JFs make life too easy. I've also used carriers quite a bit for moving ships for deployments, which with a properly set up cyno chain are just as bad.

Our wish to nerf them is also not purely due to some desire to pad our KBs, I fly solo in low sec in a ship that can't even tank gate guns so my proposed nerf wouldn't allow me to kill JFs anyway. Especially not with the way I proposed to alter them.

As for your belief that all the suggestions put forward are aimed at making pilots blindly cyno in and slow boat 10km to station... just read the thread before posting.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I don't want to remove hotdropping idiot carrier pilots that agress on the undock.... I would just prevent the hotdropped ships from landing at zero on the station.... I know dock ranges for capitals are now HUGE, and I would hope, in practice, a cyno alteration would result in the hotdrop landing ~5km's from the station docking perimeter, which hopefully is no farther than 20-30 km's from the idiotic carrier pilot.... In short, I certainly don't want to remove the risks to people agressing on station (nor prevent it)....

Yeah, the issue is with the undock size of some stations. I'm in caldari space at the moment, and the undock on my home station is huge, cynoing in 5km away from undock would put me well out of point/neut range. Even with officer point.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Mongo Edwards
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-06-25 20:30:14 UTC
Every time you jump a capital you take a risk. Assuming you aren't using your own alt, you trust that the cyno pilot knows what they are doing (always questonable) and aren't too close or too far from the station ( caldari stations are easy mode in that regard). If jumping with other capitals you do occasionally have problems with them landing on top of eachother and bumping off station. So yeah I guess if you play by yourself you can be reasonably sure of safeish travel but I would venture most people play with others in which case jumping does have risks.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-06-25 20:46:27 UTC
Question is, how much fun it is to jump 50 gates with ZZzzzzzzZZZZzzzzzz freighters and escort?

brb
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#38 - 2012-06-25 20:48:48 UTC
Innywuhne wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
*shoots self in logistics foot*

Gizz, what does the Agony logistical chain have to say about this incredibly bad idea? Should JF pilots have to jump through even more hoops to play this ******* game that already turns even the simplest things into gigantic pains in the ass? I don't see your lazy ass leaving the rats behind to perform overwatch every time something needs to get brought to the station. For the professional couriers, this would be the end of their corp, as it is impossible to recruit escort pilots on the scale necessary to protect 30+ jump freighter pilots in every corner of EVE. Did you even give that some thought? These corps are opening up losec and nosec to players who would never have the ability to do it themselves. Nosec/losec gets more targets overall than your foolish desire to add more JFs to your killboard.

I'd like to see you or other Agony pilots, in the interest of fairness and sportsmanship and whatever the ****, intentionally light cynos 10k+ off station. I know you're not doing it now. In fact, I triple dog dare your corp to begin doing it. Perhaps I should give this list of Agony JF pilots (incorp and out) and cynos (incorp and out) to someone who can put it to good use.


Seriously, why is the idea "incredibly bad"? Would this make life more difficult for Black frog and other logistics groups... certainly... If you think this adds too much risk, meaning these logistics corps would go out of business rather than deal with the risks, I can see it becomong problematic!! But don't blow it out of proportion. I do NOT expect logistics pilots to cyno in 10 km's off station and "slowboat" to the dock perimeter... Only a complete moron or an oblivious pilot with an overconfident sense of safety would ever do that... With this change, other than hotdrops, you would rarely see cyno's lit within 150 km's of a station! People would regularly light cyno's randomly somewhere in space, quickly cyno in, and web-to-warp their ship to station....

As for agony logistics pilots, in general they like this idea as much as most of EvE's logistics pilots... They enjoy the comforts of cynoing directly into dock range of a station, and they don't want to give that up... and who can blame them... Think about it: If you're a person living off unemployment for an extended period of time, and someone recommended limiting unemployment to 6 months rather than X years, do you think you'd immediately jump on board???? Of course not!!! If you're enjoy the benefits of the mechanics, and don't want to give it up no matter how sound the reasoning is!!

And here's the hard Truth: The current cyno mechanics create risk free travel in the most "dangerous" regions of EvE... and so I ask the question:

Should risk-free travel really be the norm for jump mechanics??? Is that reasonable in EvE's lowsec and nullsec regions?

If you ask 10 nullsec residents whether risk free travel through nullsec is reasonable and healthy for the game, most of them would tell you NO (until they realize you're suggesting they put their caps at risk!).

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#39 - 2012-06-25 20:51:30 UTC
Mongo Edwards wrote:
Every time you jump a capital you take a risk. Assuming you aren't using your own alt, you trust that the cyno pilot knows what they are doing (always questonable) and aren't too close or too far from the station ( caldari stations are easy mode in that regard). If jumping with other capitals you do occasionally have problems with them landing on top of eachother and bumping off station. So yeah I guess if you play by yourself you can be reasonably sure of safeish travel but I would venture most people play with others in which case jumping does have risks.


With the current 10 second session change timer, bumping is MUCH less of an issue. I've bumped off other capitals plenty of times and am still easily within docking range by the time my session change timer ends.

It is possible to get a really nasty bump that takes you out of docking range, but with the enhanced capital docking radius and the shortened session change timer, it's a very rare occurance. Also, many corps now make "cyno spots" for the entire corp to use, thereby decreasing the danger of bad cyno locations even further...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#40 - 2012-06-25 20:53:32 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Question is, how much fun it is to jump 50 gates with ZZzzzzzzZZZZzzzzzz freighters and escort?


I'm not advocation the removal of jump mechanics, I'm just think cyno's should be modified such they are a little more risky.... the best compromise I can think of involves preventing a ship from materializing within dock range of a station!