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Solve Fw plex farming problem

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Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-06-26 16:10:04 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:

Alternatively, if you want to enjoy FW's unique environment without having to care about it, you can just advocate for

1. the end of station lockouts,

2. plex fixes/reward nerfs to clear out the farmers,

3. impact-of-warzone-control nerfs so that you don't have to care about how the war is going,

4. system upgrades continuing to not really matter for individual systems so that you won't care when you lose yours.

In order of impact. Just #1 would let you stick your head in the sand. Also, whereas FW plexes are definitely already not in nullsec, I seem to recall a whole lot of people saying that the opposite of #1 was a great idea because that was how nullsec worked...

Now that Goonswarm isn't topping off all the Minmatar system upgrades, Minmatar control is down to Tier 2. I bet we start to see some changes soon.

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
New Eden Alliance 99013733
#22 - 2012-06-27 11:57:09 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Either way, it is still a stupid idea as somone who offensively plexes and almost gets the timer to 0 gets engaged in PvP and loses, has to fly away to reship and in the 5 minutes it takes to get back, finds that the timer is not 5 minutes less than when they left but rather 20 minutes less and therefore close to being closed for the defender.
Yeah - THAT is a really good mechanic...



Or, you know, you could fly a PvP fit ship and do plexes designed for your ship class.
Someone flying a superior ship? Get friends.
You get reduced ISK/H because you can't finish all plexes in your few months old alt flying a Rifter? Working as intended, I say.
You get reduced ISK/H because you died? Also working as intended.


To the others:

This would actually be better for the Amarr as they got less systems to defend.

I don't think I am allowed to link killboards, but feel free to look me up if you don't belive I PvP.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#23 - 2012-06-27 13:03:45 UTC
Dirk Smacker wrote:
Now that Goonswarm isn't topping off all the Minmatar system upgrades, Minmatar control is down to Tier 2. I bet we start to see some changes soon.

I was under the impression that WZC was disconnected from system contested status and that only the buffer level provided protection from systems becoming contested.
This I gleaned from CCP very short answer "NO" to the very direct question pre-patch: "Does the LP investment thing mean that systems can be buffer/active tanked" .. if all it takes is for some random Joe with LP to burn to counter an active plexer then by golly, CCP may have designed a system that is more broken than even I, Ms. Negativity, imagined.

At any rate, I hope you won't see any changes Soon™ (presuming you mean system flips) as Shakorites still has a major plexing advantage from underlying mechanics. Amarr will still need 2-3x (after eWar removal, was 4-5x) ) the Shakorite active numbers to
counteract NPC (missiles+arty/ac is much better than guns (mainly beams) alone) and geography/layout ..
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
Or, you know, you could fly a PvP fit ship and do plexes designed for your ship class....

You may or may not have some entries on a killboard but your PvP experience in FW theatre seems lacking. The new 'No docking' means you either suicide+reship, run or active tank.
- First can be fun for a while, but with one, maybe two fights before dying or having to retreat to put out the flames it will get old really fast.
- Second is, I bet, the most common occurrence in general as fighting outnumbered or against skewed odds is impossible with no dock to repair/refit on the off chance that you get away from the first engagement (will always be outnumbered/skewed or enemy won't enter plex in the first place. QED).
- Third will be defeated by any similar buffer fit which defender WILL use as they have docking available. May change sometime next decade when/if CCP gets around to balancing active/buffer but will be ages.

Hell, most of that was applicable before docking restrictions .. just made infinitely more pronounced by it.
Sui'Djin
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-06-27 14:22:53 UTC
Please stop calling for Iterations on PvE content in FW. I don't see why we need NPC in plexes at all. This is old game design that was supposed to enhance immersion. FW is supposed to be PvP, and I would like to get rid of PvE as far as plexes are concerned. I am aware that this means a complete overhaul of plex mechanics, but let's do this now and avoid further work on NPC-balancing-issues . There are already some decent ideas how this might work (notification which plexes are being attacked, modified button mechanics etc). Unfortunetely i can't provide the the link to that thread right now Roll.

I honestly do not want plexes to be converted to 'incursions lite'. This is something CCP should do to missions to make them mor interesting / challenging.
Bezerk'ah Vulkan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-06-27 18:27:07 UTC
LOL at some ideas droped here...

No NPCs at all? Uau...that surely will demoralize those 2 days noob stabbed alts to farm right? like "oh man...no red crosses in space for me to look at...boring...ill quit FW"

It's very simple...plexes are there, plexes have impact in warzone, which will have impact in isk/lp gains...so yeah, even those who only wants pvp have to care same how about the warzone.

Those that are asking for even easier plexes ( no npcs at all ) are the farmers themselves.
Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#26 - 2012-06-28 00:22:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Andiedeath
Good point, I dont see how removing NPCs from plexes will stop the plex farmers... In fact it will make it even easier to plex.

Edit: Killing all the NPCs will be a better change as it will promote more team workwork to plex (or a better fit ship) and remove the ability for a single shield buffered frigate to solo major complexes. Which is currently VERY easy to do against amarr npcs.

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-06-28 11:41:57 UTC
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
Either way, it is still a stupid idea as somone who offensively plexes and almost gets the timer to 0 gets engaged in PvP and loses, has to fly away to reship and in the 5 minutes it takes to get back, finds that the timer is not 5 minutes less than when they left but rather 20 minutes less and therefore close to being closed for the defender.
Yeah - THAT is a really good mechanic...



Or, you know, you could fly a PvP fit ship and do plexes designed for your ship class.
Someone flying a superior ship? Get friends.
You get reduced ISK/H because you can't finish all plexes in your few months old alt flying a Rifter? Working as intended, I say.
You get reduced ISK/H because you died? Also working as intended.


To the others:

This would actually be better for the Amarr as they got less systems to defend.

I don't think I am allowed to link killboards, but feel free to look me up if you don't belive I PvP.

The phrase "No $#IT shirlock" springs to mind. I am WELL aware of how to do plexes. Your argument does not change the fact that you want the mechanics slanted by a factor of 4 in the defenders favour.
Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
#28 - 2012-06-28 13:14:07 UTC
Desra Mascani wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:


I love how it comes from a Minmitar pilot - lets change mechanics to ensure we keep all of our systems!!!!


Not exactly. He's Matari by name, but Gallente by heart.

Oh yes, Gallente are being steamrolled by hordes of almost uncatchable Caldari noobs in stabbed ships who flee to safety as soon as they see something on their short scan. Roll At least the Amarr situation is better in the way, that they lost most of their systems before the change and at least got some fights out of it.

Check the KBs, you guys are getting your donuts punched.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#29 - 2012-06-28 13:43:52 UTC
Aylin Aslim wrote:
praznimrak wrote:
guys you did go off topic so fast.

Make killing all npc in plex MUST to finish it,thx.

Back to topic

This is the definition of PVE. Do you really want FW to be pure pvp?

remove all npc's. Make plexes work as stations where pilots cannot dock but use station services and some rewards & such.

remove stations.

more npc = more pve. Thats just pure stupidity.


If you dont kill the NPC then its obvious you have in intention to PvP in that plex and essentially are just farming.
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
#30 - 2012-06-28 13:54:31 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
If you dont kill the NPC then its obvious you have in intention to PvP in that plex and essentially are just farming.


I killed two of your guys today to a caldari minor plex where they chased my alt from timer. They both had pvp fits but still deemed it beneath their status to actually shoot the rats. Perhaps they think you catch some disease from that?

Anyway, i'd like you to make as big waves about Gallente and Matar afk plexers as you make from Caldari afk plexers.
Emily Florence Nightingale
Bi-Polar Bears
#31 - 2012-06-28 14:49:17 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
It is working as CCP wants, players do more account to farm plexes, it brings more $ ccp, working as intended, stop complaining.



^^ this tbh ^^
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#32 - 2012-06-28 15:10:53 UTC
Just stop the button counting down for offensive plexing if NPC are on grid. This forces the aggressor to at least kill the NPC which can't be done AFK or with dummy-fitted-speed-tank-only frigates.

Problem solved, end of discussion.
Liamn
Atrum Deus Vult
#33 - 2012-07-06 07:27:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Liamn
Since Inferno started, has anyone else observed how the same systems change hands back and forth . . . Sifilar/Oyeman/Raa/Tzvi; Kurniainen/Saidusairos. It seems obvious that Minies are allowing Amarr to do defensive plexing, in order to flip the system back with the Minie offensive plexing.

1. It is well established that LP reward is given for offensive plexing, not defensive plexing.
2. LP results in ISK. The side with a higher tier (usually the winning side) getting more ISK.
3. It is well known that alts exist on both sides

So far I think, working within the parameters of game design.

So, I am wandering around Mehatoor one day (high-sec system next to Raa), and I see four WT docked in a station. And it makes me go hmm: If I wanted to make a consistent amount of ISK, I would just need to make sure there were offensive plexes close by for me to do on a Minie alt, and work against my own militia – after all, they will work to get the system back anyway; and I can go back and start the cycle all over again. Screw Amarr, screw Minies, screw PVP, screw PVE. I’ll whiz around a button while watching TV all day long.

Question: working as intended? If not, a proposition: make offensive plex difficulty proportional to the winning side - if you are on the winning side (more systems conquered, or higher tier, or more members, or whatever), then make offensive plexing more difficult (rats with ewar, or incursion type rats, or more time to complete the plex, or reduction in small / medium plexes available)

Result: you would still have 1, 2, and 3 above, with a little less incentive to whiz around a button against your own militia.
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#34 - 2012-07-06 08:09:37 UTC
praznimrak wrote:
FW is a farming playground for allmost everyone in eve.

The idea was to enforce PVP fight but this is FARMFEST.


PLEASE CCP MAKE MANDATORY KILLING ALL NPC IN PLEX TO COMPLETING IT.

THX.



Why is it that the groups complaining about LP farming are the ones that have never done it under the new system. 3 of the 4 factions are fine with their loyalty point store, does that mean that the feature is working as intended?

The moar you cry the less you pee
Silence iKillYouu
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#35 - 2012-07-06 08:58:30 UTC
praznimrak wrote:
FW is a farming playground for allmost everyone in eve.

The idea was to enforce PVP fight but this is FARMFEST.


PLEASE CCP MAKE MANDATORY KILLING ALL NPC IN PLEX TO COMPLETING IT.

THX.


no You dont matter

EVE Mail me i dont check forums often.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#36 - 2012-07-06 09:49:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Pinky Feldman wrote:
praznimrak wrote:
FW is a farming playground for allmost everyone in eve.

The idea was to enforce PVP fight but this is FARMFEST.


PLEASE CCP MAKE MANDATORY KILLING ALL NPC IN PLEX TO COMPLETING IT.

THX.



Why is it that the groups complaining about LP farming are the ones that have never done it under the new system. 3 of the 4 factions are fine with their loyalty point store, does that mean that the feature is working as intended?


Simple answer is, if you dont kill the NPC then its impossible to fight in an offensive plex. Not killing the NPC is simply saying 'im not interested in pvp here what-se-ever'

There should be no incentive to have that attitude.

Yuri Intaki wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
If you dont kill the NPC then its obvious you have in intention to PvP in that plex and essentially are just farming.


I killed two of your guys today to a caldari minor plex where they chased my alt from timer. They both had pvp fits but still deemed it beneath their status to actually shoot the rats. Perhaps they think you catch some disease from that?

Anyway, i'd like you to make as big waves about Gallente and Matar afk plexers as you make from Caldari afk plexers.


But... the militia window says everything any needs to know about the level of 'afk' plexing, with caldari completing literally twice as many plexes as anyone else. Also, in my short campaign against caldari farmers the vast majority were either stabbed, had no guns or were fitted in some other way ill suited to pvp. Since i dont kill gallente farmers, ill have to wait until you have 50 examples of killing bears over a few hours and then you can talk about it yourself.

Seems to me that killing NPC would be the best change at this point. We both kill npc if we plex anyway so im pretty sure you agree.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#37 - 2012-07-06 10:26:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


But... the militia window says everything any needs to know about the level of 'afk' plexing, with caldari completing literally twice as many plexes as anyone else. Also, in my short campaign against caldari farmers the vast majority were either stabbed, had no guns or were fitted in some other way ill suited to pvp. Since i dont kill gallente farmers, ill have to wait until you have 50 examples of killing bears over a few hours and then you can talk about it yourself.

Seems to me that killing NPC would be the best change at this point. We both kill npc if we plex anyway so im pretty sure you agree.


Seriously would you quit whining about this?

Caldari out plex everyone because we do more than just farm. We DEFEND our systems. You Gals do not defend anything but your home systems. This is the reason we out plex you..

I know it's easier to whine and cry that you are losing, and ignore the fact that Caldari deals with crap loads of Minmatar/Gal farmers everyday, but maybe if you quit complaining and started defending you Gals might be able to compete with us on victory points.

Yes there is a farming issue but we have to deal with it as well. Where the hell do you think 90% of Minmatar farmers plex? You think they all farm the 11 or 12 systems that Amarr hold? Now add in all the dozens of 2 week old Gal alts to those Min alts and get a clue.
Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy
Sedition.
#38 - 2012-07-06 10:48:01 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:
Cromwell Savage wrote:
Just get rid of plexes all together and leave the fail sov mechanic for blob-sec.

The 24/7 eve-wide war-dec is all that matters. I wish CCP would stop watering it down with this rp-lite/pve crap...



cough ... nobodys looking right?

this gallente scum is right .... cough ;)

hatchet me in the lower leg later, but yes

.
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-07-06 13:55:28 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


But... the militia window says everything any needs to know about the level of 'afk' plexing, with caldari completing literally twice as many plexes as anyone else. Also, in my short campaign against caldari farmers the vast majority were either stabbed, had no guns or were fitted in some other way ill suited to pvp. Since i dont kill gallente farmers, ill have to wait until you have 50 examples of killing bears over a few hours and then you can talk about it yourself.

Seems to me that killing NPC would be the best change at this point. We both kill npc if we plex anyway so im pretty sure you agree.


Seriously would you quit whining about this?

Caldari out plex everyone because we do more than just farm. We DEFEND our systems. You Gals do not defend anything but your home systems. This is the reason we out plex you..

I know it's easier to whine and cry that you are losing, and ignore the fact that Caldari deals with crap loads of Minmatar/Gal farmers everyday, but maybe if you quit complaining and started defending you Gals might be able to compete with us on victory points.

Yes there is a farming issue but we have to deal with it as well. Where the hell do you think 90% of Minmatar farmers plex? You think they all farm the 11 or 12 systems that Amarr hold? Now add in all the dozens of 2 week old Gal alts to those Min alts and get a clue.


Wait a minute, do you mean you guys actually run defensive plexs in non-home station systems for fun? If so, this would be the major difference. How on Earth did you brainwash people to actually spend their time doing something that provides no fun, no isk, or no benefit whatsoever? Seriously, I want to know how you convinced people to do this.

Here is a basic flow diagram on how most Gallente think:

Is a home station system contested?
Y -> Defensive Plex
N -> Do I have enough pvp ships ready in station?
N->Offensive plex for isk in farming mode (ie tanked incursus that can run any plex)
Y->Is there a fleet up to kill stuff?
Y->Join fleet and kill stuff
N->Can I form a small gang?
Y->Form a small gang and offensive plex hoping to find pvp while making a little isk on the side.
N->Sit in a defensive plex solo at optimals and wait for pvp.

.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#40 - 2012-07-06 14:06:04 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Mutnin wrote:

Caldari out plex everyone because we do more than just farm. We DEFEND our systems. You Gals do not defend anything but your home systems. This is the reason we out plex you..

There are two potential reasons why your side plexes twice as much as any other side:
1. It is really easy for one day alts to offensive plexes.
2. Your side doesn't like to have fun.

So which one is it? Big smile

But in all honesty I think you have it the other way around. We defend home systems because we need to make choices about where to spend our resources. You guys plex at a 2x pace over us, so we do what we can to defend what is most important.
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