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Armor tank modules
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-06-26 11:55:44 UTC
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:
Please show me the shield bc that does this. Tip, Drake can't shoot farther than 80km with faction, 70 with rage and has 60 drone control range, which translates to 300dps@80, 400dps@70, 500dps@60.
Increasing range decreases tank.


108k EHP (77,3/80,1/85,1/87,6)
556 @ 109 km
655 @ 84 km

[Drake, Drake fit]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field

Dread Guristas Heavy Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Scourge Heavy Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Scourge Heavy Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Scourge Heavy Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Scourge Heavy Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Scourge Heavy Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Scourge Heavy Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Scourge Heavy Missile
Drone Link Augmentor II

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I


Hobgoblin II x5


Zainou 'Snapshot' Heavy Missiles HM-705
Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005
Wuxi Wuxilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-06-26 14:23:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Wuxi Wuxilla
Yes, and next you will tell me that this is a perfectly normal fit, as every rat in null drops faction.
Another tip, posting full faction fits in threads about the general state of armor/shield tanking isn't helping your case.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-06-26 14:41:53 UTC
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:
Yes, and next you will tell me that this is a perfectly normal fit, as every rat in null drops faction.
Another tip, posting full faction fits in threads about the general state of armor/shield tanking isn't helping your case.


As far as I remember you claimed that Drake can't do it. I proved you wrong.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#44 - 2012-06-26 15:05:11 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:
Yes, and next you will tell me that this is a perfectly normal fit, as every rat in null drops faction.
Another tip, posting full faction fits in threads about the general state of armor/shield tanking isn't helping your case.


As far as I remember you claimed that Drake can't do it. I proved you wrong.



With a ****-fit and implants. Good job. Please bring this ship to Liekuri and I'll kill it for you.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-06-26 15:09:20 UTC
Paikis wrote:
With a ****-fit and implants. Good job. Please bring this ship to Liekuri and I'll kill it for you.


Show me 100k EHP armor BC with 100km range then.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#46 - 2012-06-26 15:20:12 UTC
This is more a problem of the drake than a problem of armor tank ; problem which will be corrected by removing drake resist bonus soon(TM) ; and maybe HML have a bit too much dps for their range too.

Though I think the main problem of armor vs shield is armor rig killing your speed and hence your ship as opposed to shield rig which only explose your signature radius, which is only relevant when fighting against cap (and I'm exagerating only a little bit).

Armor rog penalty is silly IMO, moreover on active tank rig, but when Itterbium proposed to make buffer rig with speed malus, anyone and their grand mother went crying.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-06-26 15:27:06 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
This is more a problem of the drake than a problem of armor tank ; problem which will be corrected by removing drake resist bonus soon(TM)


It will have ~80k EHP after bonus change. Only T1 armor BC with similar EHP is Prophecy. But its dps and range are weak compared to Drake.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#48 - 2012-06-26 15:28:00 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Paikis wrote:
With a ****-fit and implants. Good job. Please bring this ship to Liekuri and I'll kill it for you.


Show me 100k EHP armor BC with 100km range then.


[Hurricane, SH!TF!T]
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Draclira's Modified Reactor Control Unit
Shaqil's Modified Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Tobias' Modified Gyrostabilizer
Tobias' Modified Gyrostabilizer
Tobias' Modified Gyrostabilizer

Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Full slaves, maxed squad commander and a Cataclysmic wormhole.

152,720 EHP
601 DPS
137km range.

Queue the semantics in 3....2.....1....
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-06-26 15:31:52 UTC
Paikis wrote:
[Hurricane, SH!TF!T]


And what makes you think that is cheaper than Drake fit I posted?
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#50 - 2012-06-26 15:37:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Paikis wrote:
[Hurricane, SH!TF!T]


And what makes you think that is cheaper than Drake fit I posted?


Paikis wrote:
Queue the semantics in 3....2.....1....


Jorma Morkkis wrote:
As far as I remember you claimed that Drake can't do it. I proved you wrong.

Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Show me 100k EHP armor BC with 100km range then.




How does it feel, eating your own words? Do they taste good? GTFO.
Wuxi Wuxilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-06-26 15:47:18 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:
Yes, and next you will tell me that this is a perfectly normal fit, as every rat in null drops faction.
Another tip, posting full faction fits in threads about the general state of armor/shield tanking isn't helping your case.


As far as I remember you claimed that Drake can't do it. I proved you wrong.


Oh, you did?
How do shoot missiles out to 100km with 75km lock range then?

Quote:

[Myrmidon, lolWhat?]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
'Marketeer' Tracking Computer I, Optimal Range Script
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script

Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor II
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II


Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x1

483 drone dps @104km
40 gun dps @97+32km
117k ehp

Slave 1-6
Inherent Implants 'Noble' Hull Upgrades HG-1006
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#52 - 2012-06-26 15:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Quote:

[Myrmidon, lolWhat?]
483 drone dps @104km
40 gun dps @97+32km
117k ehp

Slave 1-6
Inherent Implants 'Noble' Hull Upgrades HG-1006



That one doesn't count because its drones and YOU CHEATED ANYWAYS!!!!!11!! /rage
Grog Drinker
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2012-06-26 15:56:33 UTC
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:

Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x1
483 drone dps @104km
40 gun dps @97+32km
117k ehp

Slave 1-6
Inherent Implants 'Noble' Hull Upgrades HG-1006


The cutely named pirate for the win!
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-06-26 16:06:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Paikis wrote:
How does it feel, eating your own words? Do they taste good? GTFO.


Ok, you win. Shield tanking is superior.

And your Cane fit only has 46,8k EHP and targeting range is 56,3 km. 535 dps isn't even close what you stated.

Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:
How do shoot missiles out to 100km with 75km lock range then?


Is this better, babe?

[Drake, Drake fit]

Domination Ballistic Control System
Domination Ballistic Control System
Domination Ballistic Control System
Domination Ballistic Control System

Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script

Dread Guristas Heavy Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Scourge Heavy Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Scourge Heavy Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Scourge Heavy Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Scourge Heavy Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Scourge Heavy Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Scourge Heavy Missile
Dread Guristas Heavy Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Scourge Heavy Missile
Drone Link Augmentor II

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I


Hobgoblin II x5


Zainou 'Snapshot' Heavy Missiles HM-705
Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#55 - 2012-06-26 16:23:19 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Ok, you win. Shield tanking is superior.

And your Cane fit only has 46,8k EHP and targeting range is 56,3 km. 535 dps isn't even close what you stated.


A few things:

Firstly, neither shield or armour tanking is best. They are simply different and better at different things depending on the situation. Do you honestly want a game where shield and armor tanking is the same? Or where one is clearly better than the other?

Secondly, all the fits shown in this thread are crap. They are utterly horrible and no one should ever fly any of them.

Thirdly, I'll give you the targetting range, I honestly didn't check that... but then, neither did you. However, the fit I linked had the required DPS, range and tank (the tank provided by wormhole effects, but you pretty much made it anything goes).

Fourthly, the issue with the drake is more based on Heavy Missiles having long range. The actual DPS and tank numbers are very easy for all the tier 2 battlecruisers to hit, in fact the Drake actually has LESS EHP buffer than both the Harbinger and the Hurricane when they're armor tanked.

Can we be a bit more reasonable about this topic now? (i.e end the thread)
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#56 - 2012-06-26 16:27:25 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Armour and Shield tanking are different and more or less balanced.


I would like to see armor BC with 100k EHP and still be able to deal 500 dps @ 100km.

Apolyon I wrote:
shield is inferior in wspace, armor dominate, if you desperately wants to fly your galante ship, find a decent wh corps and enjoy power of armor ships


All carriers in w-space are equpped with shield transporters (yes, even Arch and Than).

Also: Pulsar.

please do link, I'd be very interested in looking at it
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-06-26 16:38:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Paikis wrote:
in fact the Drake actually has LESS EHP buffer than both the Harbinger and the Hurricane when they're armor tanked.


58,3k EHP Harbinger and for some reason I can't think anything useful out of Drake with LESS than 58,3k EHP.

[Harbinger, pew]

1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
[Empty High slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#58 - 2012-06-27 00:47:25 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Paikis wrote:
in fact the Drake actually has LESS EHP buffer than both the Harbinger and the Hurricane when they're armor tanked.


58,3k EHP Harbinger and for some reason I can't think anything useful out of Drake with LESS than 58,3k EHP.

[Harbinger, pew]


Drake's EHP comes from its mid-slots. If you can't think of anything useful to put there other than tank, you're not trying hard enough.

Sensor Boosters
Target Painters
Tracking Disruptors
Webs
Scram
Long point
ECM (Bad, but I've seen it)
ECCM
MWD
AB

Thats 10 mid-slot items that are useful. Drake has 6 midslots. Having said that, my fleet drakes (with no tackle) have 63k. My armor Harbinger fit has 69k EHP without slaves, although I do use it for things most wouldn't, and not in fleet :)
Azurius Dante
Banana Corp
#59 - 2012-07-13 14:32:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Azurius Dante
I think that large problem here is not the EHP.

It's that shield tanking high EHP automatically means high passive shield bonus.

For example:

Can fit a drake with 80k EHP very easily and have a passive regen of 60 shield per sec (on average, but it's much higher at 30% shields) and a nice amount of dps and range.

But with any armor tanking ship, it's difficult to get a nice balance of EHP, regen, dps and range as it is for a shield tanking drake.

Also to note, Prophecy's are utter garbage and should be scrapped.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#60 - 2012-07-13 15:19:27 UTC
Azurius Dante wrote:
I think that large problem here is not the EHP.

It's that shield tanking high EHP automatically means high passive shield bonus.

For example:

Can fit a drake with 80k EHP very easily and have a passive regen of 60 shield per sec (on average, but it's much higher at 30% shields) and a nice amount of dps and range.

But with any armor tanking ship, it's difficult to get a nice balance of EHP, regen, dps and range as it is for a shield tanking drake.

Also to note, Prophecy's are utter garbage and should be reworked.


Fix't. ;P

Prophecy is not a bad ship, but it definitely needs some love in the dps projection department. I like my golden chickens ;)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly