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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#161 - 2012-06-25 09:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Frying Doom wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
They reported something (might be a bug, might not be) while it was on SiSi, well before it went to TQ. CCP let that thing go live on TQ. The only possible assumption to be made by the players is that it is not a bug.

The POS guys reported the bug in a way that was intended to hide what they're doing from the Devs. They lied to the Devs. They were clearly making something from nothing.

The LP heist did not try to deceive the Devs, did not lie to the Devs, and were not making something from nothing.

If you're saying that using something that's broken for profit is an exploit, why hasn't everyone with a Tech moon been banned? CCP has said on several occasions that Tech is broken.

Your argument is kind of silly. They reported a bug but it might not have been. Well then ban them for reporting non bugs into the petition system and wasting CCP time. It was reported and they knew it was a bug.

Their characters should face the firing squad there actions were so stupid.


Are you serious?

So you expect them to read CCP's mind? Hey, I found this thing that I can make a profit off of. If I don't report it and it turns out to be a bug, I'll get banned, but if I do report it and it turns out not to be, I'll get banned.

Bug Hunters don't know the developer's intent, so they report things that are "odd." The devs then sort out what's a bug and what's intended. All this is supposed to happen before release.

You really, really hate the Goons, don't you. Geeze.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Frying Doom
#162 - 2012-06-25 09:41:16 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


Are you serious?

So you expect them to read CCP's mind? Hey, I found this thing that I can make a profit off of. If I don't report it and it turns out to be a bug, I'll get banned, but if I do report it and it turns out not to be, I'll get banned.

Bug Hunters don't know the developer's intent, so they report things that are "odd." The devs then sort out what's a bug and what's intended. All this is supposed to happen before release.

You really, really hate the Goons, don't you. Geeze.

I love how the idea "I think this is a bug, so I wont touch it" simply does not occur to you.

So don't touch and report it, it turns out to be a bug a don't get banned.
So don't touch and don't report it, it turns out to be a bug a don't get banned.

This was clearly a bug anyone with any sense could see.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Wisdom Divine
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#163 - 2012-06-25 10:02:56 UTC
I find it laughable people actually believe CCP would have pegged this as a bug by only reporting it, not exploiting it.

No, they wouldn't.

Precisely, they didn't when people warned them.

Without the Fab Five actions this loophole was going to stay unadressed, possibly used for trillions of gains over time by exploiters more humble than the goons.



CCP has lost vision on that one. Their goal was not to create a covert LP insurance system, that ended up exploitable. Are you really surprised an insurance system based on floating values got exploited in EVE Online? Really? You don't say.

CCP goal on that one is to reward militia PvP kills. That's all. There are other ways to do it. CCP ought to remember that "iteration" is not a dirty word, go back to the drawing board, and come up with something better.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#164 - 2012-06-25 10:04:26 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Are you serious?

So you expect them to read CCP's mind? Hey, I found this thing that I can make a profit off of. If I don't report it and it turns out to be a bug, I'll get banned, but if I do report it and it turns out not to be, I'll get banned.

Bug Hunters don't know the developer's intent, so they report things that are "odd." The devs then sort out what's a bug and what's intended. All this is supposed to happen before release.

You really, really hate the Goons, don't you. Geeze.

I love how the idea "I think this is a bug, so I wont touch it" simply does not occur to you.

So don't touch and report it, it turns out to be a bug a don't get banned.
So don't touch and don't report it, it turns out to be a bug a don't get banned.

This was clearly a bug anyone with any sense could see.


So if everyone does what you suggest, Bugs never get found.

In this case, Item valuation was working as intended, LP payouts were working as intended. Everything was working as intended except that CCP had not anticipated (though they should have, because it's been around for a while) market manipulation.

Un-Anticipated Gameplay ~= Emergent Gameplay
Un-Anticipated Gameplay != Bug

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Frying Doom
#165 - 2012-06-25 10:15:56 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

So if everyone does what you suggest, Bugs never get found.

In this case, Item valuation was working as intended, LP payouts were working as intended. Everything was working as intended except that CCP had not anticipated (though they should have, because it's been around for a while) market manipulation.

Un-Anticipated Gameplay ~= Emergent Gameplay
Un-Anticipated Gameplay != Bug

Do you mean to suggest that if a bunch of mindless jerks hadn't deliberately tried to exploit a system weakness this would never have been found?

So now more work is having to be done on a part of the game only affected by these jerks. Taking away resources from other parts of the game that could have done with the time, this change has already taken and will continue to take.

There are so many things that need fixing in this game, that scum who waste resources like this should just be banned. If they didn't have to keep running after morons we could all have a better game.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#166 - 2012-06-25 10:18:43 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

So if everyone does what you suggest, Bugs never get found.

In this case, Item valuation was working as intended, LP payouts were working as intended. Everything was working as intended except that CCP had not anticipated (though they should have, because it's been around for a while) market manipulation.

Un-Anticipated Gameplay ~= Emergent Gameplay
Un-Anticipated Gameplay != Bug

Do you mean to suggest that if a bunch of mindless jerks hadn't deliberately tried to exploit a system weakness this would never have been found?

So now more work is having to be done on a part of the game only affected by these jerks. Taking away resources from other parts of the game that could have done with the time, this change has already taken and will continue to take.

There are so many things that need fixing in this game, that scum who waste resources like this should just be banned. If they didn't have to keep running after morons we could all have a better game.


Show me on the doll where the bad Goonie touched you.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Frying Doom
#167 - 2012-06-25 10:24:09 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

So if everyone does what you suggest, Bugs never get found.

In this case, Item valuation was working as intended, LP payouts were working as intended. Everything was working as intended except that CCP had not anticipated (though they should have, because it's been around for a while) market manipulation.

Un-Anticipated Gameplay ~= Emergent Gameplay
Un-Anticipated Gameplay != Bug

Do you mean to suggest that if a bunch of mindless jerks hadn't deliberately tried to exploit a system weakness this would never have been found?

So now more work is having to be done on a part of the game only affected by these jerks. Taking away resources from other parts of the game that could have done with the time, this change has already taken and will continue to take.

There are so many things that need fixing in this game, that scum who waste resources like this should just be banned. If they didn't have to keep running after morons we could all have a better game.


Show me on the doll where the bad Goonie touched you.

Here, here and here.

All over areas of the game where the resources would be better used elsewhere. For such a small percentage of the Game, Goonswarm seems to waste a lot of resources on crap they do. Some of it I agree with it like hulkagedon even though that was just someone else's idea they took over. While others like this are just a complete waste of resources that could be better spent elsewhere.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#168 - 2012-06-25 10:51:38 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Alaya Carrier wrote:

After, CCP woke up, started a working anti-bot campaign, started paying more attention to the economy (see how they nerfed incursions, drone poo, then Pax Amarria) and be less oblivious to patching major flaws (patching, not preventing, they are still not doing enough to prevent them).


So, welcome to the new course, where felons get caught and punished. Expecially those who create smug attention catching huge threads in the most visible forum and twitter around.


Did Drone farmers get their mins/isk rolled back?
Did Pax Amarria people get their mins/isk rolled back?
Did Incursioners get their Isk rolled back?

The precedent is set. CCP should fix the issue and move on. They shouldn't touch the items won from it.


Once again this is not the USA. Not all the countries work on precedents and be content with copy pasting sentences.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#169 - 2012-06-25 10:59:21 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Alaya Carrier wrote:

After, CCP woke up, started a working anti-bot campaign, started paying more attention to the economy (see how they nerfed incursions, drone poo, then Pax Amarria) and be less oblivious to patching major flaws (patching, not preventing, they are still not doing enough to prevent them).


So, welcome to the new course, where felons get caught and punished. Expecially those who create smug attention catching huge threads in the most visible forum and twitter around.


Did Drone farmers get their mins/isk rolled back?
Did Pax Amarria people get their mins/isk rolled back?
Did Incursioners get their Isk rolled back?

The precedent is set. CCP should fix the issue and move on. They shouldn't touch the items won from it.


Once again this is not the USA. Not all the countries work on precedents and be content with copy pasting sentences.


The two major flavors of Legal systems in the West are Civil Law and Common Law**.
In Civil Law, there would be a specific sentence set out for the crime and the crime would be well defined.*
In Common Law, precedent applies.

*Before you say it's an exploit, you have to note that several other very similar things were fixed without punishing the people who used them before they were banned. The precedent isn't in the punishment, it's in the classification. You can assume that it's a hidden, internal Code, if you dislike precedent.
**There's also Islamic Law, which closely resembles Common Law with regard to precedent.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#170 - 2012-06-25 10:59:48 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


Wikipedia wrote:
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) is a declaration adopted by the United Nations General Assembly (10 December 1948 at Palais de Chaillot, Paris). The Declaration arose directly from the experience of the Second World War and represents the first global expression of rights to which all human beings are inherently entitled.


I think the rest of the world is on board with us on this one.


EDIT: More specifically, the following countries ban Ex Post Facto laws.
Brazil
Canada
Finland
France
Germany
India
Indonesia
Iran Iran is on board here
Ireland
Italy
Japan
Lithuania
New Zealand
Norway
Pakistan
The Philippines
Russia (noted for its strong commitment to Human rights)
Spain
South Africa
Sweden
Turkey Turkey
and the United Kingdom



First of all I invite you to leave your basement and go how the countries don't do what they write or join.
Second, exploiting (or abusing to use CCP Sreegs words) is one of the most severe acts that players can do in a MMO.

Even with the above "design by commitee" lol laws in charge, you would not prevent jail to offenders who:

- Announced the whole world their intention.
- Proceed to an already law covered crime (covered as in, it's generally ban hammer for those) even if with some distinction in some marginal paragraph.

You are not talking about people inventing a loop hole to circumvent some obscure patent related paragraph but of well know, ancient "crimes" in the MMO industry (namely: abusing of game mechanics).
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#171 - 2012-06-25 11:10:37 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Wikipedia wrote:
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) is a declaration adopted by the United Nations General Assembly (10 December 1948 at Palais de Chaillot, Paris). The Declaration arose directly from the experience of the Second World War and represents the first global expression of rights to which all human beings are inherently entitled.


I think the rest of the world is on board with us on this one.


EDIT: More specifically, the following countries ban Ex Post Facto laws.
Brazil
Canada
Finland
France
Germany
India
Indonesia
Iran Iran is on board here
Ireland
Italy
Japan
Lithuania
New Zealand
Norway
Pakistan
The Philippines
Russia (noted for its strong commitment to Human rights)
Spain
South Africa
Sweden
Turkey Turkey
and the United Kingdom



First of all I invite you to leave your basement and go how the countries don't do what they write or join.
Second, exploiting (or abusing to use CCP Sreegs words) is one of the most severe acts that players can do in a MMO.

Even with the above "design by commitee" lol laws in charge, you would not prevent jail to offenders who:

- Announced the whole world their intention.
- Proceed to an already law covered crime (covered as in, it's generally ban hammer for those) even if with some distinction in some marginal paragraph.

You are not talking about people inventing a loop hole to circumvent some obscure patent related paragraph but of well know, ancient "crimes" in the MMO industry (namely: abusing of game mechanics).


So you're saying that because some countries don't follow principles that are widely accepted as basic Human Rights, they're not Human Rights? I'm confused. Or are you saying that the countries who don't respect those basic Human Rights are in the right? Seriously, what?

Seriously, you claimed that the prohibition of Ex Post Facto laws wasn't widespread. That's clearly false. Where are you going with this?


Like Tech? It's an unintended Game mechanic. It's being abused. Where's the banhammer/wallet drain?
What about the dozens of other patch day billionaires? They abused unintended Game mechanics. Where's their banhammer/wallet drain?
What about people abusing Local, using it as an intel tool? That's an unintended Game mechanic. It's being abused. Where's the banhammer/wallet drain?

Clearly, abusing unintended Game mechanics is not a ban/wallet drain worthy offense. Whether it be by precedent or consistent application of some hidden law (there, I covered Common and Civil law for you), there is no good justification for the Jewbal to be banned or have their wallets drained.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Frying Doom
#172 - 2012-06-25 11:16:22 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


So you're saying that because some countries don't follow principles that are widely accepted as basic Human Rights, they're not Human Rights? I'm confused.

Seriously, you claimed that the prohibition of Ex Post Facto laws wasn't widespread. That's clearly false. Where are you going with this?


Like Tech? It's an unintended Game mechanic. It's being abused. Where's the banhammer/wallet drain?
What about the dozens of other patch day billionaires? They abused unintended Game mechanics. Where's their banhammer/wallet drain?
What about people abusing Local, using it as an intel tool? That's an unintended Game mechanic. It's being abused. Where's the banhammer/wallet drain?

Clearly, abusing unintended Game mechanics is not a ban/wallet drain worthy offense. Whether it be by precedent or consistent application of some hidden law (there, I covered Common and Civil law for you), there is no good justification for the to be banned or have their wallets drained.

You said it, Abusing game mechanics. Well covered in the rules under banable offenses. Also a big yes on draining the wallets as they attempted to profit from said breaches.
The very fact that now the rest of EvE's resources are being wasted because of these idiots, yes they deserve a banhammer.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#173 - 2012-06-25 11:34:49 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


So you're saying that because some countries don't follow principles that are widely accepted as basic Human Rights, they're not Human Rights? I'm confused.

Seriously, you claimed that the prohibition of Ex Post Facto laws wasn't widespread. That's clearly false. Where are you going with this?


Like Tech? It's an unintended Game mechanic. It's being abused. Where's the banhammer/wallet drain?
What about the dozens of other patch day billionaires? They abused unintended Game mechanics. Where's their banhammer/wallet drain?
What about people abusing Local, using it as an intel tool? That's an unintended Game mechanic. It's being abused. Where's the banhammer/wallet drain?

Clearly, abusing unintended Game mechanics is not a ban/wallet drain worthy offense. Whether it be by precedent or consistent application of some hidden law (there, I covered Common and Civil law for you), there is no good justification for the to be banned or have their wallets drained.

You said it, Abusing game mechanics. Well covered in the rules under banable offenses. Also a big yes on draining the wallets as they attempted to profit from said breaches.
The very fact that now the rest of EvE's resources are being wasted because of these idiots, yes they deserve a banhammer.


So you're saying that Tech needs to be rolled back a few years, NPC PI abusers need to be rolled back, and everyone needs to be rolled back 9 years for abusing Local?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alexzandvar Douglass
Motiveless Malignity
Deepwater Hooligans
#174 - 2012-06-25 11:36:08 UTC
This thread is like rocky road Ice cream, tasty, but also hard to drive on.
Timberwulf420
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#175 - 2012-06-25 11:36:31 UTC
They seek him here they seek him there those goonies seek him everywhere. Is he in heaven or is he in hell. I wont tell you cause the nasty-men in the purble hats will eat MY SOUL !!
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#176 - 2012-06-25 11:38:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab
RubyPorto wrote:
Seriously, you claimed that the prohibition of Ex Post Facto laws wasn't widespread. That's clearly false. Where are you going with this?

Talk of Ex Post Facto is moronic considering that the EULA already covers the FW LP thing, in that gaining something at an "accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play" is not allowed.

RubyPorto wrote:
So you're saying that Tech needs to be rolled back a few years, NPC PI abusers need to be rolled back, and everyone needs to be rolled back 9 years for abusing Local?

Risk vs. Rewards.

We all know that there's risk involved when pushing the rules, and many of us put up billions knowing we might lose out on NPC PI. That CCP didn't revert meant we got lucky, not that a precedent was set.

Seriously much butthurt from goons lately.

Nyan
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#177 - 2012-06-25 11:44:01 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


The two major flavors of Legal systems in the West are Civil Law and Common Law**.
In Civil Law, there would be a specific sentence set out for the crime and the crime would be well defined.*
In Common Law, precedent applies.


Never heard of any of them where I live. In general there are guidelines "spirit of the law" and if you break them in a new way you are just sent to an higher tribunal where they will study the case and fit you a suitable penalty. They also file the case to the Parliament so they can add new paragraphs covering those niche cases.

But this is not a niche case anyway, it's just plain old game mechanics abuse, with the made worse by having it known in advance and then even announced in public about doing it.


RubyPorto wrote:

*Before you say it's an exploit, you have to note that several other very similar things were fixed without punishing the people who used them before they were banned. The precedent isn't in the punishment, it's in the classification. You can assume that it's a hidden, internal Code, if you dislike precedent.


I don't say it's an exploit, because the only official word has classed it as abuse. I don't make brown nosing vicious circles around what happened, just the substance and CCP written word.
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#178 - 2012-06-25 11:54:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Alaya Carrier
RubyPorto wrote:

Like Tech? It's an unintended Game mechanic. It's being abused. Where's the banhammer/wallet drain?
What about the dozens of other patch day billionaires? They abused unintended Game mechanics. Where's their banhammer/wallet drain?
What about people abusing Local, using it as an intel tool? That's an unintended Game mechanic. It's being abused. Where's the banhammer/wallet drain?

Clearly, abusing unintended Game mechanics is not a ban/wallet drain worthy offense. Whether it be by precedent or consistent application of some hidden law (there, I covered Common and Civil law for you), there is no good justification for the Jewbal to be banned or have their wallets drained.


Tech is not an unintended game mechanic. There are precious battle objectives like in most PvP games and somebody was good enough to go take and hold them.
They are distributed bad, true, but that's really a game flaw, not a game mechanic flaw.
They require thousands of people cooperating over months.

Also, holding a cartel has very high risks and needs consensus from PL and other enemies. If they manage to do that, hats to them. That's an emergent game mechanics at play. It still deserves CCP to look at it to re-position the battle objectives in a more even way but that's it.

"Abusing local" is not an abuse, because where it's deemed to be an appropriate usage it's been left, where it's been deemed to bring unfair advantages it's been removed (WHs).

Now I know you are totally invested and thus unable to any critic view on what the abusers have done but it does not change that this abuse lacks of the factors that make other mechanics legit.

- Nobody creates twitters or threads about how smart they were at using local. Local is a (wrong imo) foundation feature of EvE. Nobody gets 5 trillions by looking at local while spamming a G15 macro (debatable in itself).

- Nobody takes 70% of the moons in 5, in few weeks. If they found a way, they'd break the very fabric upon which the game is meant to work and it has to be fixed ASAP.

Now keep quoting and bringing in excuses, excuses and more excuses, CCP will not listen to a single of them. They did not even subscribe to your Rights Laws.
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#179 - 2012-06-25 11:56:42 UTC
I am quite surprised that it took such an event to alert CCP to a fact they were warned about before the FW changes were implemented a few weeks ago. I clearly recall the warnings about such things happening. I am not condoning what has been done, but I do think that CCP where well forewarned of such a 'feature' becoming a full-blown exploit.

Punishing the guilty ? Hell, they should be rewarded for exposing this otherwise terrible flaw. Did they make that much profit ? Yes, for sure they did, but extreme punishment is not called for here. Way too many emotions colouring any form of fair judgement - judgement which only CCP will make, not all the bleating for blood I read in these forums.

In effect, this was a case of "we're giving you this huge bag of sweets, don't take more than you need." Of course people are going to work out a way to overextend their appetites, what did anyone expect was going to happen ?

I say remove from the guilty wallets up until just before FW was implemented, that data is easily on-hand for CCP for those involved. But bannings and total wallet wipes ? Over-reacting is just as bad as exposing any exploit. A firm but fair decision is called for, not a decision polluted by the emotions of other players.

Write what you will, it's up to CCP to apply the punishment, not anyone here.

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
Frying Doom
#180 - 2012-06-25 12:03:19 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
I am quite surprised that it took such an event to alert CCP to a fact they were warned about before the FW changes were implemented a few weeks ago. I clearly recall the warnings about such things happening. I am not condoning what has been done, but I do think that CCP where well forewarned of such a 'feature' becoming a full-blown exploit.

Punishing the guilty ? Hell, they should be rewarded for exposing this otherwise terrible flaw. Did they make that much profit ? Yes, for sure they did, but extreme punishment is not called for here. Way too many emotions colouring any form of fair judgement - judgement which only CCP will make, not all the bleating for blood I read in these forums.

In effect, this was a case of "we're giving you this huge bag of sweets, don't take more than you need." Of course people are going to work out a way to overextend their appetites, what did anyone expect was going to happen ?

I say remove from the guilty wallets up until just before FW was implemented, that data is easily on-hand for CCP for those involved. But bannings and total wallet wipes ? Over-reacting is just as bad as exposing any exploit. A firm but fair decision is called for, not a decision polluted by the emotions of other players.

Write what you will, it's up to CCP to apply the punishment, not anyone here.

You say " they were warned about before the FW changes were implemented a few weeks ago"
then say "Hell, they should be rewarded for exposing this otherwise terrible flaw"

You have already said the flaw was known before hand, all this has done is waste CCP resources better spent elsewhere and make it look like CCP should be happy about having there face rubbed in it.

It is up to CCP to decide a fair punishment for multiple breaches of the rules.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!