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Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#141 - 2012-06-25 07:07:38 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
What the Jewbal did wasn't illegal when they did it.

Are you saying that exploiting a vulnerability should be legal up and until CCP says no?


Uh yeah: I think it's fair to say if there is no law against doing _____ that people should not be punished for it if the law is then created after the fact. I certainly don't see any of the old T2 lottery BPO's being stripped from the people who received them when someone had a GM handing them out like candy to their alliance. I also don't recall hearing about how all the isk from the old ferrogel duping exploits were yanked out of the system.

We won't even get into the differences between "Exploiting" a system and "Gaming" a system.


You don't see because there is a

- Before Sreegs

- After Sreegs.


Before, CCP were totally oblivious to anything, even their botting detection was mostly based on humans manually following people who got flagged by heuristics. They were oblivious to patching major loop holes. They were lenient to every blatant exploit.

After, CCP woke up, started a working anti-bot campaign, started paying more attention to the economy (see how they nerfed incursions, drone poo, then Pax Amarria) and be less oblivious to patching major flaws (patching, not preventing, they are still not doing enough to prevent them).


So, welcome to the new course, where felons get caught and punished. Expecially those who create smug attention catching huge threads in the most visible forum and twitter around.
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2012-06-25 07:09:12 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
You flew right over the part where CCP was warned about the problem before it hit TQ. That's kind of the whole ballgame. The players did their diligence by telling CCP about a thing. CCP ignored the players. The effects of the thing are on CCP's head.


Every single flawed law has been widely discussed and its weak points discovered and often passed over to the media.

Do you then proceed abusing it very hard and then pay thousands for a full page national newspapers advertisment to show off your glorious name and how smart you were at it?

What happens next? Do you get a badge of smartness or a quick visit by the cops?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_10:_Limits_on_the_States

If it's not illegal when you do it, you're not subject to criminal sanction, no matter how much you boast about it.


This is not the USA. The rest of the world thinks different. Deal with it.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#143 - 2012-06-25 07:10:09 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
The FW LP heist used an unexpected interaction between several mechanics (all of which were working properly) to make a boatload of LP. The mechanic that created that LP was working fine and as intended, the mechanic setting the market price was working fine and as intended. Now, if CCP doesn't like the result of this, the reasonable response for them is to fix the problem the same way they've fixed other similar interactions (NPC PI, and Insurance Fraud), by banning it going forward until a fix for it is put in.

The whole "get LP for blowing up things" reward is ... going to be tricky, isn't it. With a whole bunch of things that might be manipulable. And not just for LP - for a standard scam as well...


With just LP for ship hulls, it was fine. The payouts were small and fixed so that market manip couldn't break them (and even then, the markets for most ships are pretty hard to manipulate long and big enough to affect the 90d average).

Adding cargo was just inviting this. And there's no real way to fix it, aside from making it a fixed number and accepting that people will regularly cash out tanking items into LP.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2012-06-25 07:11:16 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
You flew right over the part where CCP was warned about the problem before it hit TQ. That's kind of the whole ballgame. The players did their diligence by telling CCP about a thing. CCP ignored the players. The effects of the thing are on CCP's head.


Every single flawed law has been widely discussed and its weak points discovered and often passed over to the media.

Do you then proceed abusing it very hard and then pay thousands for a full page national newspapers advertisment to show off your glorious name and how smart you were at it?

What happens next? Do you get a badge of smartness or a quick visit by the cops?

Are we gonna talk about people walking around with massive cannons and only get cops warping on them after they've gibbed the freighter?


Like RL, police goes to the scene crime only after the crime happened (duh! Roll).

What does Concord do? Punish the criminals. After the fact.

What should CCP do? Punish the abusers. After the fact.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#145 - 2012-06-25 07:13:32 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_10:_Limits_on_the_States

If it's not illegal when you do it, you're not subject to criminal sanction, no matter how much you boast about it.


This is not the USA. The rest of the world thinks different. Deal with it.


Wikipedia wrote:

Article 11, paragraph 2 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights provides that no person be held guilty of any criminal law that did not exist at the time of offence nor suffer any penalty heavier than what existed at the time of offence. It does however permit application of either domestic or international law.


Universal Declaration of Human Rights wrote:

Article 11
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence. (2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.


Wikipedia wrote:
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) is a declaration adopted by the United Nations General Assembly (10 December 1948 at Palais de Chaillot, Paris). The Declaration arose directly from the experience of the Second World War and represents the first global expression of rights to which all human beings are inherently entitled.


I think the rest of the world is on board with us on this one.


EDIT: More specifically, the following countries ban Ex Post Facto laws.
Brazil
Canada
Finland
France
Germany
India
Indonesia
Iran Iran is on board here
Ireland
Italy
Japan
Lithuania
New Zealand
Norway
Pakistan
The Philippines
Russia (noted for its strong commitment to Human rights)
Spain
South Africa
Sweden
Turkey Turkey
and the United Kingdom

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#146 - 2012-06-25 07:14:21 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
You flew right over the part where CCP was warned about the problem before it hit TQ. That's kind of the whole ballgame. The players did their diligence by telling CCP about a thing. CCP ignored the players. The effects of the thing are on CCP's head.


Every single flawed law has been widely discussed and its weak points discovered and often passed over to the media.

Do you then proceed abusing it very hard and then pay thousands for a full page national newspapers advertisment to show off your glorious name and how smart you were at it?

What happens next? Do you get a badge of smartness or a quick visit by the cops?

Are we gonna talk about people walking around with massive cannons and only get cops warping on them after they've gibbed the freighter?


Like RL, police goes to the scene crime only after the crime happened (duh! Roll).

What does Concord do? Punish the criminals. After the fact.

What should CCP do? Punish the abusers. After the fact.


The police can't arrest you if what you did wasn't a crime at the time you did it.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#147 - 2012-06-25 07:16:28 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Are you serious ?
Its a flawed game mechanic if you MAKE isk by LOSING isk....

That's equivalent of buying npc trade goods in 1 station for 10isk each and selling them in the same station for 100isk each


Sounds exactly like the NPC PI goods thing. You could buy POSes from NPCs, reprocess them, and sell the components for a fairly large profit.

Nobody got stuff taken away unless they did it after CCP announced that they should stop.


EDIT: People have always made huge profits from patches. The FW thing is no different.


Just because in the past CCP were oblivious to the consequences of their own bad coding does not mean they have to keep staying oblivious.

NPC PI, Pax Amarria, POS duping and so on, all deserved from complete roll back of the ill gotten riches / assets to immediate perma ban. Every decent MMO company does that.


They fixed those things. They didn't rollback or permaban anyone.

CCP owns the third largest paid western MMO there is. Which MMO companies are you talking about?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#148 - 2012-06-25 07:16:46 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

CCP intended to drastically reduce datacore prices. People profit from falling markets all the time.


Yeah I see smart money going short on datacores. Oh wait you can't in this game.


Goonswarm did.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#149 - 2012-06-25 07:20:51 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:

After, CCP woke up, started a working anti-bot campaign, started paying more attention to the economy (see how they nerfed incursions, drone poo, then Pax Amarria) and be less oblivious to patching major flaws (patching, not preventing, they are still not doing enough to prevent them).


So, welcome to the new course, where felons get caught and punished. Expecially those who create smug attention catching huge threads in the most visible forum and twitter around.


Did Drone farmers get their mins/isk rolled back?
Did Pax Amarria people get their mins/isk rolled back?
Did Incursioners get their Isk rolled back?

The precedent is set. CCP should fix the issue and move on. They shouldn't touch the items won from it.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Yolanta Geezenstack
GWA Corp
#150 - 2012-06-25 07:25:50 UTC
Reading all those arguments I wonder what the discussion would look like if Jade Constantine would have done that and earned 3 Trillion ISK while the Goonswarm members just earned some Billion ISK - would we see goons in this thread saying "grats, well done!" then or would they shout "catch the thief"? Roll
Lexmana
#151 - 2012-06-25 07:27:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
RubyPorto wrote:
I think the rest of the world is on board with us on this one.


I see that you like to quote wikipedia. And you are arguing that exploiting vulnerabilities should be lega. You might not have the rest of the world with you on that one.

Quote:
An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw including glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1]


This game is about outsmarting other players, not outsmarting NPCs.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#152 - 2012-06-25 07:40:58 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

CCP intended to drastically reduce datacore prices. People profit from falling markets all the time.


Yeah I see smart money going short on datacores. Oh wait you can't in this game.

Anyone with datacores, lend them to me for a bit ... I'll give em back later on.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#153 - 2012-06-25 07:48:01 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
I think the rest of the world is on board with us on this one.


I see that you like to quote wikipedia. And you are arguing that exploiting vulnerabilities should be lega. You might not have the rest of the world with you on that one.

Quote:
An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw including glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1]


This game is about outsmarting other players, not outsmarting NPCs.


That was a specific response to this:

Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

If it's not illegal when you do it, you're not subject to criminal sanction, no matter how much you boast about it.


This is not the USA. The rest of the world thinks different. Deal with it.


Which in turn, was a response to an analogy of exploiting a loophole in RL law.


I am arguing that, having done their diligence by reporting the problem before it hit TQ, anyone can make a profit off of something if CCP decides that that thing will go to TQ. CCP is then free to change that thing, but should leave the profit alone. In the past, when things like this have come up, that's exactly what they've done. They've fixed the problem and moved on.

(See, it's also a game about outsmarting the Devs because that can be fun too, and the Devs don't tend to do anything about broken mechanics until someone takes them and runs with it.)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Lexmana
#154 - 2012-06-25 08:05:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
RubyPorto wrote:
I am arguing that, having done their diligence by reporting the problem before it hit TQ, anyone can make a profit off of something if CCP decides that that thing will go to TQ. CCP is then free to change that thing, but should leave the profit alone. In the past, when things like this have come up, that's exactly what they've done. They've fixed the problem and moved on.

CCP has every right to punish exploiters. They have just not done it much in the past.

I do like to agree with you on this one because of sandbox. And normally I would but the scale of this exploit is close to game breaking. And I don't want to break the game. What if the next time CCP mess up 1000 players are sitting on 100B LP each. Should we then just accept that large parts of the game is completely broken for years and maybe let EVE die?

The main problem with exploits is that many are very difficult to predict and detect and time consuming to fix (e.g. bots). Some might even be impossible to fix without breaking to much of the game play (loggoffski) . A lot of the time CCP have to look through the fingers but the damage is usually minimal so it doesn't matter much.

But when exploiting on this scale CCP cannot just watch and see the game potentially being destroyed. I am not sure if the scale of this is truly game breaking but it looks like it could be. Aryth and co. should be very aware of this. They certainly knew they were exploiting a design defect.

But just to clarify, I don't think they should be banned (with what I know). Rather they deserve some kind of reward but keeping their assets gained might not be the right move here.
Frying Doom
#155 - 2012-06-25 08:16:48 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Lexmana wrote:

This game is about outsmarting other players, not outsmarting NPCs.


That was a specific response to this:

Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

If it's not illegal when you do it, you're not subject to criminal sanction, no matter how much you boast about it.


This is not the USA. The rest of the world thinks different. Deal with it.


Which in turn, was a response to an analogy of exploiting a loophole in RL law.


I am arguing that, having done their diligence by reporting the problem before it hit TQ, anyone can make a profit off of something if CCP decides that that thing will go to TQ. CCP is then free to change that thing, but should leave the profit alone. In the past, when things like this have come up, that's exactly what they've done. They've fixed the problem and moved on.

(See, it's also a game about outsmarting the Devs because that can be fun too, and the Devs don't tend to do anything about broken mechanics until someone takes them and runs with it.)

But it was illegal the rules were created years ago.

They exploited the game and they need to pay. The loot needs to be gone or CCP just sets the example, that if we find an exploit we just say its not a bug, because CCP did not specifically say so and then try our hardest to break the game.

That would be a great precedent NOT. They exploited a reported bug and need to be punished using the POS precedent.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#156 - 2012-06-25 08:43:23 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
I am arguing that, having done their diligence by reporting the problem before it hit TQ, anyone can make a profit off of something if CCP decides that that thing will go to TQ. CCP is then free to change that thing, but should leave the profit alone. In the past, when things like this have come up, that's exactly what they've done. They've fixed the problem and moved on.

CCP has every right to punish exploiters. They have just not done it much in the past.

I do like to agree with you on this one because of sandbox. And normally I would but the scale of this exploit is close to game breaking. And I don't want to break the game. What if the next time CCP mess up 1000 players are sitting on 100B LP each. Should we then just accept that large parts of the game is completely broken for years and maybe let EVE die?

The main problem with exploits is that many are very difficult to predict and detect and time consuming to fix (e.g. bots). Some might even be impossible to fix without breaking to much of the game play (loggoffski) . A lot of the time CCP have to look through the fingers but the damage is usually minimal so it doesn't matter much.

But when exploiting on this scale CCP cannot just watch and see the game potentially being destroyed. I am not sure if the scale of this is truly game breaking but it looks like it could be. Aryth and co. should be very aware of this. They certainly knew they were exploiting a design defect.

But just to clarify, I don't think they should be banned (with what I know). Rather they deserve some kind of reward but keeping their assets gained might not be the right move here.


I said "CCP should leave the profit alone" not "CCP doesn't have the right to take it away." CCP has the right to do whatever they want with EvE.

This wasn't an Exploit any more than Tech, NPC PI, or Jetcan Mining is.

No, if it would legitimately damage the economy, CCP might be wise to intercede (though I'd hope that this, and so many other events would finally teach them to listen to their SiSi testers). 5T Isk worht of LP is not nearly enough to damage the economy. The Jewbal kept it small so that they wouldn't harm the economy as a whole.

Tech is a Design defect. CCP has said so. Should we roll back all tech income? Taking an advantage of a design defect that CCP knows (or should know about, because they've been told about it) is perfectly fine until CCP says "Hey, stop that, we're gonna be fixing that, but in the meantime, cut it out."

If they had tried to hide it from CCP or if nobody had told CCP that this would happen at Fanfest, it would be different.

They had an unlimited LP printer. The small reward is the 5T isk they limited themselves to.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#157 - 2012-06-25 08:49:16 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Lexmana wrote:

This game is about outsmarting other players, not outsmarting NPCs.


That was a specific response to this:

Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

If it's not illegal when you do it, you're not subject to criminal sanction, no matter how much you boast about it.


This is not the USA. The rest of the world thinks different. Deal with it.


Which in turn, was a response to an analogy of exploiting a loophole in RL law.


I am arguing that, having done their diligence by reporting the problem before it hit TQ, anyone can make a profit off of something if CCP decides that that thing will go to TQ. CCP is then free to change that thing, but should leave the profit alone. In the past, when things like this have come up, that's exactly what they've done. They've fixed the problem and moved on.

(See, it's also a game about outsmarting the Devs because that can be fun too, and the Devs don't tend to do anything about broken mechanics until someone takes them and runs with it.)

But it was illegal the rules were created years ago.

They exploited the game and they need to pay. The loot needs to be gone or CCP just sets the example, that if we find an exploit we just say its not a bug, because CCP did not specifically say so and then try our hardest to break the game.

That would be a great precedent NOT. They exploited a reported bug and need to be punished using the POS precedent.


They reported something (might be a bug, might not be) while it was on SiSi, well before it went to TQ. CCP let that thing go live on TQ. The only possible assumption to be made by the players is that it is not a bug.

The POS guys reported the bug in a way that was intended to hide what they're doing from the Devs. They lied to the Devs. They were clearly making something from nothing.

The LP heist did not try to deceive the Devs, did not lie to the Devs, and were not making something from nothing.

If you're saying that using something that's broken for profit is an exploit, why hasn't everyone with a Tech moon been banned? CCP has said on several occasions that Tech is broken.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2012-06-25 09:13:39 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Alaya Carrier wrote:

This is not the USA. The rest of the world thinks different. Deal with it.


...

I think the rest of the world is on board with us on this one.


EDIT: More specifically, the following countries ban Ex Post Facto laws.
Brazil

...

and the United Kingdom


If you read any of the articles your quoting, you'd see many of those countries *have*.

Ironically

Quote:

Taxation law has on multiple occasions been changed to retrospectively disallow tax avoidance schemes.[9] The most significant example known concerns Double-taxation Treaty Arrangements where the 2008 Finance Act with BN66 retrospectively amended 1987 legislation creating large tax liabilities for 3000 people where no liability existed before.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#159 - 2012-06-25 09:18:41 UTC
betoli wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Alaya Carrier wrote:

This is not the USA. The rest of the world thinks different. Deal with it.


...

I think the rest of the world is on board with us on this one.


EDIT: More specifically, the following countries ban Ex Post Facto laws.
Brazil

...

and the United Kingdom


If you read any of the articles your quoting, you'd see many of those countries *have*.

Ironically

Quote:

Taxation law has on multiple occasions been changed to retrospectively disallow tax avoidance schemes.[9] The most significant example known concerns Double-taxation Treaty Arrangements where the 2008 Finance Act with BN66 retrospectively amended 1987 legislation creating large tax liabilities for 3000 people where no liability existed before.



If you read the conversation you're replying to, you'd see we were talking about Crimes, i.e. Criminal Law.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Frying Doom
#160 - 2012-06-25 09:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
RubyPorto wrote:
They reported something (might be a bug, might not be) while it was on SiSi, well before it went to TQ. CCP let that thing go live on TQ. The only possible assumption to be made by the players is that it is not a bug.

The POS guys reported the bug in a way that was intended to hide what they're doing from the Devs. They lied to the Devs. They were clearly making something from nothing.

The LP heist did not try to deceive the Devs, did not lie to the Devs, and were not making something from nothing.

If you're saying that using something that's broken for profit is an exploit, why hasn't everyone with a Tech moon been banned? CCP has said on several occasions that Tech is broken.

Your argument is kind of silly. They reported a bug but it might not have been. Well then ban them for reporting non bugs into the petition system and wasting CCP time. It was reported and they knew it was a bug.

Their characters should face the firing squad there actions were so stupid.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!