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Frying Doom
#121 - 2012-06-25 04:03:20 UTC
Children know the difference between right and wrong.

This was not market manipulation as that does not require interaction to another part of the game. Note I said require, the ice interdiction could have been done by artificially raising the prices without the PvP. I would not have been as successful but it could have been done.

This could NOT have been done without the flawed CCP calculations.
It was a reported bug. They knew this and exploited it anyway.

The precedent for this behavior is clear. They should receive the same punishment as the blatant POS bug. Anymore would be unfair, any less would be favoritism.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#122 - 2012-06-25 04:03:27 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Information Agent wrote:

Directly from the goons own mouth from the long explanation posted earlier in the week. He uses the word 'exploit' which to me states that they knew what they were doing was wrong.



Quote:
When CCP originally released their devblog on Inferno and revealed the formula they intended to use, we sat in shock. I immediately stated a phrase I would repeat many times: “/10000 will not save them”. CCP made the assumption that rewarding a player 1/10th of the value of the player’s kill at 1K ISK/LP, for a total of 10K ISK destroyed CCP Value/1 ISK reward, would prevent manipulation of the system. While this was an understandable mistake, it turned out to be several orders of magnitude off.

We laid in wait.


again.. the bolded part shows the foreknowledge of the misdeed

Quote:
The original babby step was to use hydromagnetic datacores. Hydrocores had a CCP Value of 317,000 ISK (pay attention to this number, because it’s important). When we bought Minmatar into Tier 4, we were rewarded with a 50% reduction in both LP and ISK cost of our purchases from their loyalty store, so one datacore from the LP store at Tier 4 cost 25 LP and 25,000 isk. When the hauler with the datacore inside was duly murdered by our Minmatar loyalist, it rewarded the murderer with 63.5 LP. Blowing up datacores in this manner grossed enough LP to cash out into implants (at 2000 ISK/LP) to cover the isk portion of the cost of the datacore, while still netting excess LP in the process. Essentially, we were able to convert ISK to LP at the rate of 1390 ISK per LP, then immediately sell the produced LP for 1.5 times what we paid


Think I see why their datacores got ganked now

Sheds new light on the "datacores that had nothing to do with what they did" line...


Hey goon, try refuting this part, I see you skipped it the first time


CCP intended to drastically reduce datacore prices. People profit from falling markets all the time.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#123 - 2012-06-25 04:06:36 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Children know the difference between right and wrong.

This was not market manipulation as that does not require interaction to another part of the game. Note I said require, the ice interdiction could have been done by artificially raising the prices without the PvP. I would not have been as successful but it could have been done.

This could NOT have been done without the flawed CCP calculations.
It was a reported bug. They knew this and exploited it anyway.

The precedent for this behavior is clear. They should receive the same punishment as the blatant POS bug. Anymore would be unfair, any less would be favoritism.


Tech could not be the income source it is today without CCP's massive cock up. NPC PI orders couldn't have been the income bonanza that it was if CCP hadn't left them up after the patch went live.

The precedent is clear. They should lose whatever they made after it was ruled an exploit, but keep everything from before.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Frying Doom
#124 - 2012-06-25 04:14:31 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Children know the difference between right and wrong.

This was not market manipulation as that does not require interaction to another part of the game. Note I said require, the ice interdiction could have been done by artificially raising the prices without the PvP. I would not have been as successful but it could have been done.

This could NOT have been done without the flawed CCP calculations.
It was a reported bug. They knew this and exploited it anyway.

The precedent for this behavior is clear. They should receive the same punishment as the blatant POS bug. Anymore would be unfair, any less would be favoritism.


Tech could not be the income source it is today without CCP's massive cock up. NPC PI orders couldn't have been the income bonanza that it was if CCP hadn't left them up after the patch went live.

The precedent is clear. They should lose whatever they made after it was ruled an exploit, but keep everything from before.

Tech was only caused by a human treaty. Yes it needs changing because it did the opposite of what was intended.

Yes the precedent is clear. If you massively abuse a broken mechanic you Loose big time, like the POS bug.

CCP should be congratulated for being on the ball so fast about an obvious abuse of a report bug. As to CCP not releasing it because it was broken, maybe they shouldn't have but I like most of the player base like to see more updates, maybe they just assumed that no one would be stupid enough to abuse a known bug and expect to get away with it.

Say what you will this was abuse of a broken mechanic in the extreme.

No amount of Spin will change that or the punishment they should receive.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#125 - 2012-06-25 04:15:37 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
What the Jewbal did wasn't illegal when they did it.

Are you saying that exploiting a vulnerability should be legal up and until CCP says no?


Uh yeah: I think it's fair to say if there is no law against doing _____ that people should not be punished for it if the law is then created after the fact. I certainly don't see any of the old T2 lottery BPO's being stripped from the people who received them when someone had a GM handing them out like candy to their alliance. I also don't recall hearing about how all the isk from the old ferrogel duping exploits were yanked out of the system.

We won't even get into the differences between "Exploiting" a system and "Gaming" a system.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#126 - 2012-06-25 04:17:20 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Frying Doom wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Children know the difference between right and wrong.

This was not market manipulation as that does not require interaction to another part of the game. Note I said require, the ice interdiction could have been done by artificially raising the prices without the PvP. I would not have been as successful but it could have been done.

This could NOT have been done without the flawed CCP calculations.
It was a reported bug. They knew this and exploited it anyway.

The precedent for this behavior is clear. They should receive the same punishment as the blatant POS bug. Anymore would be unfair, any less would be favoritism.


Tech could not be the income source it is today without CCP's massive cock up. NPC PI orders couldn't have been the income bonanza that it was if CCP hadn't left them up after the patch went live.

The precedent is clear. They should lose whatever they made after it was ruled an exploit, but keep everything from before.

Tech was only caused by a human treaty. Yes it needs changing because it did the opposite of what was intended.

Yes the precedent is clear. If you massively abuse a broken mechanic you Loose big time, like the POS bug.

CCP should be congratulated for being on the ball so fast about an obvious abuse of a report bug. As to CCP not releasing it because it was broken, maybe they shouldn't have but I like most of the player base like to see more updates, maybe they just assumed that no one would be stupid enough to abuse a known bug and expect to get away with it.

Say what you will this was abuse of a broken mechanic in the extreme.

No amount of Spin will change that or the punishment they should receive.


Nope. Tech was broken before OTEC.

EDIT: Being on the ball about this would have been fixing it when it was reported on SISI or at Fanfest.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Frying Doom
#127 - 2012-06-25 04:32:04 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
What the Jewbal did wasn't illegal when they did it.

Are you saying that exploiting a vulnerability should be legal up and until CCP says no?


Uh yeah: I think it's fair to say if there is no law against doing _____ that people should not be punished for it if the law is then created after the fact.

But there is a law

23.You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp
REVISED: 31 January, 2008

1. EXPLOITS

An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if:

c. An account holder guilty of employing “duping” exploits. Players found to have received the benefits of this exploit may also face reprimand, from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts.

Severe offences may result in an immediate ban without warning; however, warnings may be given for first time offenses, followed by account suspensions of varying degree and ultimately a permanent ban if a player:

c. Is aware of an exploitable bug and fails to report it to Game Masters and/or distributes the information to other players.
http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/banning.asp

So exploited a known bug and publicly announced it. The rules pretty much cover it and were there like the precedent well before the incident.

And the precedent already exists as to the total effect of what the punishment should be.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#128 - 2012-06-25 04:42:15 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


EDIT: Being on the ball about this would have been fixing it when it was reported on SISI or at Fanfest.

Not knowing the companies internal workings, I can not say how feasible this is.

However any person would expect to be severely punished for exploiting a known bug.
So it would not be unreasonable to release it and fix it later knowing that only complete morons would exploit it.

And here we are now Big smile

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#129 - 2012-06-25 05:08:05 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


EDIT: Being on the ball about this would have been fixing it when it was reported on SISI or at Fanfest.

Not knowing the companies internal workings, I can not say how feasible this is.

However any person would expect to be severely punished for exploiting a known bug.
So it would not be unreasonable to release it and fix it later knowing that only complete morons would exploit it.

And here we are now Big smile


Where's the bug? 90d Moving averages are working as intended. FW payouts based on those were working as intended. What was bugged?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Frying Doom
#130 - 2012-06-25 05:10:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
RubyPorto wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


EDIT: Being on the ball about this would have been fixing it when it was reported on SISI or at Fanfest.

Not knowing the companies internal workings, I can not say how feasible this is.

However any person would expect to be severely punished for exploiting a known bug.
So it would not be unreasonable to release it and fix it later knowing that only complete morons would exploit it.

And here we are now Big smile


Where's the bug? 90d Moving averages are working as intended. FW payouts based on those were working as intended. What was bugged?

So now you are claiming its working as intended and doesn't need to be patched or changed. Even though it has just been shown to be flawed as hell.

Give it up they acted like fools and now will pay the price.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#131 - 2012-06-25 05:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Frying Doom wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


EDIT: Being on the ball about this would have been fixing it when it was reported on SISI or at Fanfest.

Not knowing the companies internal workings, I can not say how feasible this is.

However any person would expect to be severely punished for exploiting a known bug.
So it would not be unreasonable to release it and fix it later knowing that only complete morons would exploit it.

And here we are now Big smile


Where's the bug? 90d Moving averages are working as intended. FW payouts based on those were working as intended. What was bugged?

So now you are claiming its working as intended and doesn't need to be patched or changed. Even though it has just been shown to be flawed as hell.

Give it up they acted like fools and now will pay the price.


Unintended Gameplay != Bug
Needing a Patch != Bug (unless you're saying that Tech either doesn't need patching or is a bug)

Not a Bug/Exploit != Not needing a patch

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2012-06-25 05:48:37 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
You flew right over the part where CCP was warned about the problem before it hit TQ. That's kind of the whole ballgame. The players did their diligence by telling CCP about a thing. CCP ignored the players. The effects of the thing are on CCP's head.


Every single flawed law has been widely discussed and its weak points discovered and often passed over to the media.

Do you then proceed abusing it very hard and then pay thousands for a full page national newspapers advertisment to show off your glorious name and how smart you were at it?

What happens next? Do you get a badge of smartness or a quick visit by the cops?
Frying Doom
#133 - 2012-06-25 06:12:36 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


EDIT: Being on the ball about this would have been fixing it when it was reported on SISI or at Fanfest.

Not knowing the companies internal workings, I can not say how feasible this is.

However any person would expect to be severely punished for exploiting a known bug.
So it would not be unreasonable to release it and fix it later knowing that only complete morons would exploit it.

And here we are now Big smile


Where's the bug? 90d Moving averages are working as intended. FW payouts based on those were working as intended. What was bugged?

So now you are claiming its working as intended and doesn't need to be patched or changed. Even though it has just been shown to be flawed as hell.

Give it up they acted like fools and now will pay the price.


Unintended Gameplay != Bug
Needing a Patch != Bug (unless you're saying that Tech either doesn't need patching or is a bug)

Not a Bug/Exploit != Not needing a patch

Well the response of CCP will at least answer for one and all, if this is EvE online or Goonswarm online. There is a clear precedent for this kind of behavior and should be followed.

It was clearly a bug to anyone with the ability to think.
It was a reported bug and those morons who used it and bragged about it should get the same as those involved in the POS bug.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#134 - 2012-06-25 06:14:36 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
You flew right over the part where CCP was warned about the problem before it hit TQ. That's kind of the whole ballgame. The players did their diligence by telling CCP about a thing. CCP ignored the players. The effects of the thing are on CCP's head.


Every single flawed law has been widely discussed and its weak points discovered and often passed over to the media.

Do you then proceed abusing it very hard and then pay thousands for a full page national newspapers advertisment to show off your glorious name and how smart you were at it?

What happens next? Do you get a badge of smartness or a quick visit by the cops?

Don't worry I'm sure RubyPorto of SniggWaffe will state it wasn't against the rules even though it clearly is.

He will probably suggest trophies for the heroes as wellLol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#135 - 2012-06-25 06:42:22 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
You flew right over the part where CCP was warned about the problem before it hit TQ. That's kind of the whole ballgame. The players did their diligence by telling CCP about a thing. CCP ignored the players. The effects of the thing are on CCP's head.


Every single flawed law has been widely discussed and its weak points discovered and often passed over to the media.

Do you then proceed abusing it very hard and then pay thousands for a full page national newspapers advertisment to show off your glorious name and how smart you were at it?

What happens next? Do you get a badge of smartness or a quick visit by the cops?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_10:_Limits_on_the_States

If it's not illegal when you do it, you're not subject to criminal sanction, no matter how much you boast about it.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#136 - 2012-06-25 06:42:45 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
You flew right over the part where CCP was warned about the problem before it hit TQ. That's kind of the whole ballgame. The players did their diligence by telling CCP about a thing. CCP ignored the players. The effects of the thing are on CCP's head.


Every single flawed law has been widely discussed and its weak points discovered and often passed over to the media.

Do you then proceed abusing it very hard and then pay thousands for a full page national newspapers advertisment to show off your glorious name and how smart you were at it?

What happens next? Do you get a badge of smartness or a quick visit by the cops?

Are we gonna talk about people walking around with massive cannons and only get cops warping on them after they've gibbed the freighter?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#137 - 2012-06-25 06:51:08 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Unintended Gameplay != Bug
Needing a Patch != Bug (unless you're saying that Tech either doesn't need patching or is a bug)

Not a Bug/Exploit != Not needing a patch

Well the response of CCP will at least answer for one and all, if this is EvE online or Goonswarm online. There is a clear precedent for this kind of behavior and should be followed.

It was clearly a bug to anyone with the ability to think.
It was a reported bug and those morons who used it and bragged about it should get the same as those involved in the POS bug.


You're right. There is a clear precedent to this situation. You're just applying the wrong precedent.

The POS exploit exploited a Bug where reactors wouldn't check their incoming silos properly. Players figured this out and made weaselly attempts to cover their buts with poorly worded bug reports.

The FW LP heist used an unexpected interaction between several mechanics (all of which were working properly) to make a boatload of LP. The mechanic that created that LP was working fine and as intended, the mechanic setting the market price was working fine and as intended. Now, if CCP doesn't like the result of this, the reasonable response for them is to fix the problem the same way they've fixed other similar interactions (NPC PI, and Insurance Fraud), by banning it going forward until a fix for it is put in.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#138 - 2012-06-25 06:54:11 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
The FW LP heist used an unexpected interaction between several mechanics (all of which were working properly) to make a boatload of LP. The mechanic that created that LP was working fine and as intended, the mechanic setting the market price was working fine and as intended. Now, if CCP doesn't like the result of this, the reasonable response for them is to fix the problem the same way they've fixed other similar interactions (NPC PI, and Insurance Fraud), by banning it going forward until a fix for it is put in.

The whole "get LP for blowing up things" reward is ... going to be tricky, isn't it. With a whole bunch of things that might be manipulable. And not just for LP - for a standard scam as well...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#139 - 2012-06-25 06:57:25 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Are you serious ?
Its a flawed game mechanic if you MAKE isk by LOSING isk....

That's equivalent of buying npc trade goods in 1 station for 10isk each and selling them in the same station for 100isk each


Sounds exactly like the NPC PI goods thing. You could buy POSes from NPCs, reprocess them, and sell the components for a fairly large profit.

Nobody got stuff taken away unless they did it after CCP announced that they should stop.


EDIT: People have always made huge profits from patches. The FW thing is no different.


Just because in the past CCP were oblivious to the consequences of their own bad coding does not mean they have to keep staying oblivious.

NPC PI, Pax Amarria, POS duping and so on, all deserved from complete roll back of the ill gotten riches / assets to immediate perma ban. Every decent MMO company does that.
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2012-06-25 07:02:27 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

CCP intended to drastically reduce datacore prices. People profit from falling markets all the time.


Yeah I see smart money going short on datacores. Oh wait you can't in this game.