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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#101 - 2012-06-25 02:33:37 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Har Harrison wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
At worst you will lose a few mil, at best you will double your isk.
The % of success is in your favor

Devs didn't intend us to buy stacks of AFs and play lottery in space with them by ourselves, did they ?


Nope. But unintentional mechanic != Exploit. It's called Emergent gameplay

See:
Jetcans
AFK Cloaking
Tech
And so many more.

The Devs didn't INTEND for Mittens to setup a moon goo cartel and have the north sit on an isk gathering machine (I don't say printing as they don't create isk, just gain it for the resource).
The Devs thought it would foster conflict as the alliances in the south (e.g. AAA, Atlas etc...) would fight to gain those moons. Instead what has happened is that the alliances in the north have held them for such a length of time that they have built sizable war chests to use in defending these moons and as a result can

1) establish a price fixing cartel
2) throw cheap ships to their pilots for event like burn jita
3) sponser the killing of hulks etc... so as it turn Hulkageddon into an ongoing event.

Intended outcome? No, but it is still a sandbox one until CCP alter the way moons work (remove them and replace with ring mining or similar) or have the resources deplete and respawn or change t2 production again to make the moons more balanced across the map.


That's my point. It's unintended and massively profitable but not an Exploit.

(Oh, and CCP was, of course, warned by Akita T well before Tech hit TQ)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2012-06-25 02:33:48 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


Nope. But unintentional mechanic != Exploit. It's called Emergent gameplay



I give up, its hopeless to argue against you. Its silly that a lot of people on here think that unless its specifically specified to the letter by CCP(think of the recent rookie systems thread) then you can do everything and anything you like without a second thought of whether it was intended in the first place or not.

As soon as something profits you its suddenly "emergent gameplay", as soon as ccp corrects something that concerns them its "don't touch my sandbox".

Im going to sleep now. o/
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2012-06-25 02:34:03 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:

And no risk vs reward??
When one invest all the isk one have, is that not a risk?


No, that's called "investing all the isk one has".

It's a risk if there's a chance you'll lose some or all of your investment.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#104 - 2012-06-25 02:35:27 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Nope. But unintentional mechanic != Exploit. It's called Emergent gameplay



I give up, its hopeless to argue against you. Its silly that a lot of people on here think that unless its specifically specified to the letter by CCP(think of the recent rookie systems thread) then you can do everything and anything you like without a second thought of whether it was intended in the first place or not.

As soon as something profits you its suddenly "emergent gameplay", as soon as ccp corrects something that concerns them its "don't touch my sandbox".

Im going to sleep now. o/


That's umm, actually the definition of sandbox gameplay. If it's not prohibited, then it's allowed.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#105 - 2012-06-25 02:36:15 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
When its so profitable that it makes you question the reality(might not be the word im looking for) of it then its most likely not intended.

Just as there was an "exploit" a while back that i discovered by getting killed to rats doing a level 3. Back when retribution hulls were 13m each, i bought a few and died to rats on purpose to further "test" it.

It was a lot more chance based profit but it was still profit by non intended game mechanics. You died in your retribution(uninsured) then salvaged it(sometimes you got intact armor plates which sold for 34m).

Me being a person with common sense i didn't abuse the exploit even though i knew it would get rich, feel free to do it if you wish.


Uh, Tech?


damn funny when Goons even admit this is basically an exploit

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2012-06-25 02:36:18 UTC
Fatbottom Girl wrote:
This bold and beautiful universe we live in became much smaller.


The universe hasn't changed size, you can just see the existng boundaries a bit more clearly.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#107 - 2012-06-25 02:37:36 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
When its so profitable that it makes you question the reality(might not be the word im looking for) of it then its most likely not intended.

Just as there was an "exploit" a while back that i discovered by getting killed to rats doing a level 3. Back when retribution hulls were 13m each, i bought a few and died to rats on purpose to further "test" it.

It was a lot more chance based profit but it was still profit by non intended game mechanics. You died in your retribution(uninsured) then salvaged it(sometimes you got intact armor plates which sold for 34m).

Me being a person with common sense i didn't abuse the exploit even though i knew it would get rich, feel free to do it if you wish.


Uh, Tech?


damn funny when Goons even admit this is basically an exploit


When it's fixed do you think tech profits will be rolled back?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#108 - 2012-06-25 02:38:13 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Nope. But unintentional mechanic != Exploit. It's called Emergent gameplay



I give up, its hopeless to argue against you. Its silly that a lot of people on here think that unless its specifically specified to the letter by CCP(think of the recent rookie systems thread) then you can do everything and anything you like without a second thought of whether it was intended in the first place or not.

As soon as something profits you its suddenly "emergent gameplay", as soon as ccp corrects something that concerns them its "don't touch my sandbox".

Im going to sleep now. o/


Of course it is; thats why Sreegs stopped posting and CCP are just ignoring them now

Goons... listen to reason? Peh they cant when the walls are bleeding and people's faces melting as they imbibed in their own Kool-aid

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2012-06-25 02:41:00 UTC
Bah, sandbox doesn't mean "abusing unintended game flaws to majorly profit". I don't know about you but when i think sandbox i think free roam, no objectives, no storyline quests that lead to endgame and no cutscenes. (minecraft, garry's mod)

Unless you mean that eve's sandbox is: rustle other's jimmies, troll online, find loopholes to get rich.
Information Agent
Apparently Miners
#110 - 2012-06-25 02:41:53 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


Market Manipulation isn't an Exploit
Profit isn't an Exploit
Blowing up your alts isn't an Exploit
Spreadsheets in Spreadsheets Online certainly aren't an exploit

Where's the exploit?

Your evidence of ""premeditation" only show that they planned to make money (most industrialists use spreadsheets to ensure a profit).


Just a quick reply because its late where I am and Im getting sleepy hehe.

Quote:
A small group of market and game mechanics wizards sat in a channel, put their heads together and designed a theoretical exploit to game the system. It succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.


Directly from the goons own mouth from the long explanation posted earlier in the week. He uses the word 'exploit' which to me states that they knew what they were doing was wrong.

Quote:
The “cost” in this equation was CCP’s own metric, which you can see by opening your cargo window or your station hangars and looking in the bottom right of the window. Therein lies the heart of the break -- CCP’s item value calculation was very vulnerable to manipulation. If you picked the right item, loaded hundreds of thousands of them into a Badger, then blew it up in the context of Faction Warfare, you could generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost. As long as you did the math right, the result was foolproof.


Manipulating CCP's calculations in a way to profit sounds less like market manipulation and more like cheating to me personally. Also, a 'coming forward' of explaining producing faction lp in limitless quantities for practically no cost in a 'foulproof' manner. Its not so much the producing that is wrong, but the quantities, nothing in EVE is limitless, its all limited either by player action or by design. So, when player action circumvents this, or design breaks, then somethings wrong.

I'll just reiterate on an earlier point that since CCP had already said 'it should not happen' means they obviously were aware that without tweaking the game before releasing Inferno that it could be 'gamed' . Which leads me to believe that CCP were in the belief that no one would try to break/game/exploit the system after fanfest given their stance on it was 'should not happen' (ie, they were in the belief that they had made it impossible to do or unlikely to happen and it wouldnt be classed as an exploit since it isnt possible etc).

Kinda hard to put it into words really without it sounding like a jabbering mess, but I think you get were Im coming from. Smile
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#111 - 2012-06-25 02:48:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Information Agent wrote:

Directly from the goons own mouth from the long explanation posted earlier in the week. He uses the word 'exploit' which to me states that they knew what they were doing was wrong.



Quote:
When CCP originally released their devblog on Inferno and revealed the formula they intended to use, we sat in shock. I immediately stated a phrase I would repeat many times: “/10000 will not save them”. CCP made the assumption that rewarding a player 1/10th of the value of the player’s kill at 1K ISK/LP, for a total of 10K ISK destroyed CCP Value/1 ISK reward, would prevent manipulation of the system. While this was an understandable mistake, it turned out to be several orders of magnitude off.

We laid in wait.


again.. the bolded part shows the foreknowledge of the misdeed

Quote:
The original babby step was to use hydromagnetic datacores. Hydrocores had a CCP Value of 317,000 ISK (pay attention to this number, because it’s important). When we bought Minmatar into Tier 4, we were rewarded with a 50% reduction in both LP and ISK cost of our purchases from their loyalty store, so one datacore from the LP store at Tier 4 cost 25 LP and 25,000 isk. When the hauler with the datacore inside was duly murdered by our Minmatar loyalist, it rewarded the murderer with 63.5 LP. Blowing up datacores in this manner grossed enough LP to cash out into implants (at 2000 ISK/LP) to cover the isk portion of the cost of the datacore, while still netting excess LP in the process. Essentially, we were able to convert ISK to LP at the rate of 1390 ISK per LP, then immediately sell the produced LP for 1.5 times what we paid


Think I see why their datacores got ganked now

Sheds new light on the "datacores that had nothing to do with what they did" line...

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Charles Baker
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2012-06-25 02:59:50 UTC
In this thread, Goon-alts cry harder than Highsec miners during Hulkageddon, honestly HTFU.

P.S. Please continue to gank highsec miners indefinitely (maybe burn Jita and Dodixie too for that matter) as i need you guys to continue driving prices up so i can smoke money like a ******* baron.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#113 - 2012-06-25 03:03:24 UTC
Charles Baker wrote:
In this thread, Goon-alts cry harder than Highsec miners during Hulkageddon, honestly HTFU.

P.S. Please continue to gank highsec miners indefinitely (maybe burn Jita and Dodixie too for that matter) as i need you guys to continue driving prices up so i can smoke money like a Goon smokes Tech


Me too

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Charles Baker
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2012-06-25 03:07:43 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Goon smokes Tech


Goons can't smoke Tech, they don't have enough cash to pay sov-bills. they didn't Launder their FW money like a smart criminal honestly if you'd ran a few Multi-billion ISK IPO's you could have laundered most of it for ISK not linked to your FW scheming, yes you'd lose lots of it but at the end you 'd have nothing but sweet smelling ISKies.
Phill Esteen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2012-06-25 03:10:35 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Your evidence of ""premeditation" only show that they planned to make money (most industrialists use spreadsheets to ensure a profit).


ban spreadsheets

– postum faex est – 

never forget
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#116 - 2012-06-25 03:13:43 UTC
Phill Esteen wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Your evidence of ""premeditation" only show that they planned to make money (most industrialists use spreadsheets to ensure a profit).


ban spreadsheets


Wait wouldnt that ban EVE?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#117 - 2012-06-25 03:44:21 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Bah, sandbox doesn't mean "abusing unintended game flaws to majorly profit". I don't know about you but when i think sandbox i think free roam, no objectives, no storyline quests that lead to endgame and no cutscenes. (minecraft, garry's mod)

Unless you mean that eve's sandbox is: rustle other's jimmies, troll online, find loopholes to get rich.


Tech, Local, NPC PI, and Jetcan mining say you're wrong.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#118 - 2012-06-25 03:45:46 UTC
Information Agent wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Market Manipulation isn't an Exploit
Profit isn't an Exploit
Blowing up your alts isn't an Exploit
Spreadsheets in Spreadsheets Online certainly aren't an exploit

Where's the exploit?

Your evidence of ""premeditation" only show that they planned to make money (most industrialists use spreadsheets to ensure a profit).


Just a quick reply because its late where I am and Im getting sleepy hehe.

Quote:
A small group of market and game mechanics wizards sat in a channel, put their heads together and designed a theoretical exploit to game the system. It succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.


Directly from the goons own mouth from the long explanation posted earlier in the week. He uses the word 'exploit' which to me states that they knew what they were doing was wrong.

Quote:
The “cost” in this equation was CCP’s own metric, which you can see by opening your cargo window or your station hangars and looking in the bottom right of the window. Therein lies the heart of the break -- CCP’s item value calculation was very vulnerable to manipulation. If you picked the right item, loaded hundreds of thousands of them into a Badger, then blew it up in the context of Faction Warfare, you could generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost. As long as you did the math right, the result was foolproof.


Manipulating CCP's calculations in a way to profit sounds less like market manipulation and more like cheating to me personally. Also, a 'coming forward' of explaining producing faction lp in limitless quantities for practically no cost in a 'foulproof' manner. Its not so much the producing that is wrong, but the quantities, nothing in EVE is limitless, its all limited either by player action or by design. So, when player action circumvents this, or design breaks, then somethings wrong.

I'll just reiterate on an earlier point that since CCP had already said 'it should not happen' means they obviously were aware that without tweaking the game before releasing Inferno that it could be 'gamed' . Which leads me to believe that CCP were in the belief that no one would try to break/game/exploit the system after fanfest given their stance on it was 'should not happen' (ie, they were in the belief that they had made it impossible to do or unlikely to happen and it wouldnt be classed as an exploit since it isnt possible etc).

Kinda hard to put it into words really without it sounding like a jabbering mess, but I think you get were Im coming from. Smile


Google "artistic license." Be amazed.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#119 - 2012-06-25 03:57:00 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Information Agent wrote:

Directly from the goons own mouth from the long explanation posted earlier in the week. He uses the word 'exploit' which to me states that they knew what they were doing was wrong.



Quote:
When CCP originally released their devblog on Inferno and revealed the formula they intended to use, we sat in shock. I immediately stated a phrase I would repeat many times: “/10000 will not save them”. CCP made the assumption that rewarding a player 1/10th of the value of the player’s kill at 1K ISK/LP, for a total of 10K ISK destroyed CCP Value/1 ISK reward, would prevent manipulation of the system. While this was an understandable mistake, it turned out to be several orders of magnitude off.

We laid in wait.


again.. the bolded part shows the foreknowledge of the misdeed

Quote:
The original babby step was to use hydromagnetic datacores. Hydrocores had a CCP Value of 317,000 ISK (pay attention to this number, because it’s important). When we bought Minmatar into Tier 4, we were rewarded with a 50% reduction in both LP and ISK cost of our purchases from their loyalty store, so one datacore from the LP store at Tier 4 cost 25 LP and 25,000 isk. When the hauler with the datacore inside was duly murdered by our Minmatar loyalist, it rewarded the murderer with 63.5 LP. Blowing up datacores in this manner grossed enough LP to cash out into implants (at 2000 ISK/LP) to cover the isk portion of the cost of the datacore, while still netting excess LP in the process. Essentially, we were able to convert ISK to LP at the rate of 1390 ISK per LP, then immediately sell the produced LP for 1.5 times what we paid


Think I see why their datacores got ganked now

Sheds new light on the "datacores that had nothing to do with what they did" line...


Hey goon, try refuting this part, I see you skipped it the first time

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Nikodiemus
Ganja Clade
Shadow Cartel
#120 - 2012-06-25 03:59:26 UTC
Fatbottom Girl wrote:
CCP Xhagen says. "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden

June 22, 2012 Never forget.

The death of the sandbox came as innocuously as it began. A group of enterprising individuals who examine patch notes and run spreadsheets and formulas found a way to get ahead of a poorly implemented feature on an upcoming patch. The Viking Gods of CCP hf saw fit to sacrifice innovation upon the altar of expediency.

Walls slammed into place and bars were erected. "You may go this far and no further," was the message. This bold and beautiful universe we live in became much smaller.

June 22, 2012 Never forget.


Christ you people never give up do you? Any thinking person can see you are speaking bullshit and it only follows that anymore positive responses are from goons.

The shard isn't failing, the devs (for a change) are on the ball, the game is safe, and the assholes that tried to hurt every other player that was not directly involved in the scam are being dealt with.

Spreadsheets online is still Eve. Manipulating a game mechanic in a way that it was not intended as the rules state, is not Eve.