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Information Agent
Apparently Miners
#81 - 2012-06-25 01:41:56 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


You flew right over the part where CCP was warned about the problem before it hit TQ. That's kind of the whole ballgame. The players did their diligence by telling CCP about a thing. CCP ignored the players. The effects of the thing are on CCP's head.


just because an exploit got reported in good time to prevent it making it onto TQ, doesn't mean its ok to then use the unfixed exploit and expect to keep everything gained from it. "Wah, we told them it was broke, we used it knowing it was broke and now they take our moneys, why???? waaah" is all it sounds like from my balcony in common sense land. Its not on CCP's head at all, its on the head of every person who knowingly abused an exploit, they were the ones planning, preparing and carrying out the act after all.

In my honest opinion, using an exploit that you have previous knowledge from the test server of in conjunction with knowing that it is indeed an 'exploit' by very definition should result in a permanent ban of the account/s and account holders using said exploit and total reversal of all ill-gotten gains received via use of the exploit.

After all, there no telling how many totally unconnected people were affected by the use of this exploit, they may be out of pocket, they may have had enough of hearing about goons constantly and quit, or they may be put off by the fact that there is that much high level organisation going into gaming a system to an advantage. It would seriously put me off wanting to play if I was new to the game and heard people were in serious planning sessions, speadsheets an all, on how to gain vitual currency from a loophole/exploit in a game I was enjoying. Theres really no telling how far the ripples from something like this travel.
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2012-06-25 01:49:13 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Or maybe listening to people when they point out massive, gaping holes in their product. After all, we're not here to watch Gonzo, we're here for spaceships.

Thing is, its not massive, gaping holes in the product if it requires hardcore spreadsheet action and only a couple of people actually go that far.

In your case CCP should have listened to the ui change too, even if only the minority can't stand it.


People pointed out that the LP gain from cargo would be abused through market manipulation long before it was spreadsheetable (or released).

Pretty much the first thing that was said at Fan Fest in regards to the LP for PvP kills (besides the cheering) was that it must not be exploitable via killing alts on the other side.
CCP said this would not occur - payout would be worth less than the value of the items to prevent the FW equivilant of Insurance Fraud.
Goons proved that CCP failed to deliver on this...
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2012-06-25 01:52:25 UTC
Information Agent wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


You flew right over the part where CCP was warned about the problem before it hit TQ. That's kind of the whole ballgame. The players did their diligence by telling CCP about a thing. CCP ignored the players. The effects of the thing are on CCP's head.


just because an exploit got reported in good time to prevent it making it onto TQ, doesn't mean its ok to then use the unfixed exploit and expect to keep everything gained from it. "Wah, we told them it was broke, we used it knowing it was broke and now they take our moneys, why???? waaah" is all it sounds like from my balcony in common sense land. Its not on CCP's head at all, its on the head of every person who knowingly abused an exploit, they were the ones planning, preparing and carrying out the act after all.

In my honest opinion, using an exploit that you have previous knowledge from the test server of in conjunction with knowing that it is indeed an 'exploit' by very definition should result in a permanent ban of the account/s and account holders using said exploit and total reversal of all ill-gotten gains received via use of the exploit.

After all, there no telling how many totally unconnected people were affected by the use of this exploit, they may be out of pocket, they may have had enough of hearing about goons constantly and quit, or they may be put off by the fact that there is that much high level organisation going into gaming a system to an advantage. It would seriously put me off wanting to play if I was new to the game and heard people were in serious planning sessions, speadsheets an all, on how to gain vitual currency from a loophole/exploit in a game I was enjoying. Theres really no telling how far the ripples from something like this travel.




So much this! Also, amazing name!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#84 - 2012-06-25 02:00:54 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Information Agent wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


You flew right over the part where CCP was warned about the problem before it hit TQ. That's kind of the whole ballgame. The players did their diligence by telling CCP about a thing. CCP ignored the players. The effects of the thing are on CCP's head.


just because an exploit got reported in good time to prevent it making it onto TQ, doesn't mean its ok to then use the unfixed exploit and expect to keep everything gained from it. "Wah, we told them it was broke, we used it knowing it was broke and now they take our moneys, why???? waaah" is all it sounds like from my balcony in common sense land. Its not on CCP's head at all, its on the head of every person who knowingly abused an exploit, they were the ones planning, preparing and carrying out the act after all.

In my honest opinion, using an exploit that you have previous knowledge from the test server of in conjunction with knowing that it is indeed an 'exploit' by very definition should result in a permanent ban of the account/s and account holders using said exploit and total reversal of all ill-gotten gains received via use of the exploit.

After all, there no telling how many totally unconnected people were affected by the use of this exploit, they may be out of pocket, they may have had enough of hearing about goons constantly and quit, or they may be put off by the fact that there is that much high level organisation going into gaming a system to an advantage. It would seriously put me off wanting to play if I was new to the game and heard people were in serious planning sessions, speadsheets an all, on how to gain vitual currency from a loophole/exploit in a game I was enjoying. Theres really no telling how far the ripples from something like this travel.


We can't know it's broken unless CCP says it is. Plenty of mechanics had unintended side effects. Jetcan mining wasn't an intended side effect of jettisoning cargo, but there you have it. Tech's current issues were pretty clearly unintended, but it's not an exploit. Incursions weren't an exploit even though CCP didn't expect influence to immediately peg to 0 once people swooped in.

Just because it's unexpected doesn't mean it's an exploit (Jetcan mining) and just because it's profitable doesn't mean it's an exploit (Tech, NPC PI goo, etc). So how can you tell?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2012-06-25 02:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
When its so profitable that it makes you question the reality(might not be the word im looking for) of it then its most likely not intended.

Just as there was an "exploit" a while back that i discovered by getting killed to rats doing a level 3. Back when retribution hulls were 13m each, i bought a few and died to rats on purpose to further "test" it.

It was a lot more chance based profit but it was still profit by non intended game mechanics. You died in your retribution(uninsured) then salvaged it(sometimes you got intact armor plates which sold for 34m).

Me being a person with common sense i didn't abuse the exploit even though i knew it would get me rich, feel free to do it if you wish.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#86 - 2012-06-25 02:14:08 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
When its so profitable that it makes you question the reality(might not be the word im looking for) of it then its most likely not intended.

Just as there was an "exploit" a while back that i discovered by getting killed to rats doing a level 3. Back when retribution hulls were 13m each, i bought a few and died to rats on purpose to further "test" it.

It was a lot more chance based profit but it was still profit by non intended game mechanics. You died in your retribution(uninsured) then salvaged it(sometimes you got intact armor plates which sold for 34m).

Me being a person with common sense i didn't abuse the exploit even though i knew it would get rich, feel free to do it if you wish.


Uh, Tech? And intact armor plates aren't an exploit any more than insurance fraud is when it's possible due to changing markets.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Information Agent
Apparently Miners
#87 - 2012-06-25 02:15:22 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

We can't know it's broken unless CCP says it is. Plenty of mechanics had unintended side effects. Jetcan mining wasn't an intended side effect of jettisoning cargo, but there you have it. Tech's current issues were pretty clearly unintended, but it's not an exploit. Incursions weren't an exploit even though CCP didn't expect influence to immediately peg to 0 once people swooped in.

Just because it's unexpected doesn't mean it's an exploit (Jetcan mining) and just because it's profitable doesn't mean it's an exploit (Tech, NPC PI goo, etc). So how can you tell?


This is the problem, how much common sense would it have taken to realize that it was indeed an exploit, if speadsheets were being drawn up listing quantities and types of items to use in order to artificially inflate rewards then they were obviously premeditating the act, they knew it was an exploit and they used it regardless.

As said by others, it was a known issue during fanfest and something that CCP said would not happen, so when it did happen how would it be labled as 'ok' by anyone with this knowledge, people dont need to be told a pan of boiling water is hot, they should be able to make a reasonable assumption for themselves.

Don't get me wrong though, I admire the level of planning, mathmatical wizardry and the sheer cunning of what they did, but they did do it without thinking of the after effects and fall-out, not just for themselves but for everyone else too.
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2012-06-25 02:15:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
RubyPorto wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
When its so profitable that it makes you question the reality(might not be the word im looking for) of it then its most likely not intended.

Just as there was an "exploit" a while back that i discovered by getting killed to rats doing a level 3. Back when retribution hulls were 13m each, i bought a few and died to rats on purpose to further "test" it.

It was a lot more chance based profit but it was still profit by non intended game mechanics. You died in your retribution(uninsured) then salvaged it(sometimes you got intact armor plates which sold for 34m).

Me being a person with common sense i didn't abuse the exploit even though i knew it would get rich, feel free to do it if you wish.


Uh, Tech? And intact armor plates aren't an exploit any more than insurance fraud is when it's possible due to changing markets.


So you are saying its ok to blow up cheap ships and salvage them afterwards for a chance to get something thats worth double the isk of their whole hull ?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#89 - 2012-06-25 02:18:53 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
When its so profitable that it makes you question the reality(might not be the word im looking for) of it then its most likely not intended.

Just as there was an "exploit" a while back that i discovered by getting killed to rats doing a level 3. Back when retribution hulls were 13m each, i bought a few and died to rats on purpose to further "test" it.

It was a lot more chance based profit but it was still profit by non intended game mechanics. You died in your retribution(uninsured) then salvaged it(sometimes you got intact armor plates which sold for 34m).

Me being a person with common sense i didn't abuse the exploit even though i knew it would get rich, feel free to do it if you wish.


Uh, Tech? And intact armor plates aren't an exploit any more than insurance fraud is when it's possible due to changing markets.


So you are saying its ok to blow up cheap ships and salvage them afterwards for a chance to get something thats worth double the isk ?


Absolutely. Self Destruction isn't an Exploit, Salvaging isn't an Exploit, making money off of either isn't an Exploit, where's the exploit?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2012-06-25 02:20:29 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
When its so profitable that it makes you question the reality(might not be the word im looking for) of it then its most likely not intended.

Just as there was an "exploit" a while back that i discovered by getting killed to rats doing a level 3. Back when retribution hulls were 13m each, i bought a few and died to rats on purpose to further "test" it.

It was a lot more chance based profit but it was still profit by non intended game mechanics. You died in your retribution(uninsured) then salvaged it(sometimes you got intact armor plates which sold for 34m).

Me being a person with common sense i didn't abuse the exploit even though i knew it would get rich, feel free to do it if you wish.

Everyone knows there is a chance to get an Intact Armor plate from salvaging an AF which is worth more than the AF. It's not an "exploit" though as it is an intended mechanic and since it isn't 100%, you are not guranteed to make more ISK from it than you sink into it, depending on the market price differences. And the market economics will correct for it. Everyone does this, the price of AF goes up and the increased supply of the plates means their price will go down. The equilibrium will be reached such that it isn't profitable to do. Does it have the side effect of making AF too expensive to PvP in? Possibly, but that is the nature of the sandbox and something CCP can fix by tweaking the loot drops to drop less plates from an AF...
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#91 - 2012-06-25 02:21:14 UTC
Information Agent wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

We can't know it's broken unless CCP says it is. Plenty of mechanics had unintended side effects. Jetcan mining wasn't an intended side effect of jettisoning cargo, but there you have it. Tech's current issues were pretty clearly unintended, but it's not an exploit. Incursions weren't an exploit even though CCP didn't expect influence to immediately peg to 0 once people swooped in.

Just because it's unexpected doesn't mean it's an exploit (Jetcan mining) and just because it's profitable doesn't mean it's an exploit (Tech, NPC PI goo, etc). So how can you tell?


This is the problem, how much common sense would it have taken to realize that it was indeed an exploit, if speadsheets were being drawn up listing quantities and types of items to use in order to artificially inflate rewards then they were obviously premeditating the act, they knew it was an exploit and they used it regardless.

As said by others, it was a known issue during fanfest and something that CCP said would not happen, so when it did happen how would it be labled as 'ok' by anyone with this knowledge, people dont need to be told a pan of boiling water is hot, they should be able to make a reasonable assumption for themselves.

Don't get me wrong though, I admire the level of planning, mathmatical wizardry and the sheer cunning of what they did, but they did do it without thinking of the after effects and fall-out, not just for themselves but for everyone else too.


Market Manipulation isn't an Exploit
Profit isn't an Exploit
Blowing up your alts isn't an Exploit
Spreadsheets in Spreadsheets Online certainly aren't an exploit

Where's the exploit?

Your evidence of ""premeditation" only show that they planned to make money (most industrialists use spreadsheets to ensure a profit).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2012-06-25 02:21:42 UTC
Are you serious ?
Its a flawed game mechanic if you MAKE isk by LOSING isk....

That's equivalent of buying npc trade goods in 1 station for 10isk each and selling them in the same station for 100isk each
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2012-06-25 02:22:15 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
When its so profitable that it makes you question the reality(might not be the word im looking for) of it then its most likely not intended.

Just as there was an "exploit" a while back that i discovered by getting killed to rats doing a level 3. Back when retribution hulls were 13m each, i bought a few and died to rats on purpose to further "test" it.

It was a lot more chance based profit but it was still profit by non intended game mechanics. You died in your retribution(uninsured) then salvaged it(sometimes you got intact armor plates which sold for 34m).

Me being a person with common sense i didn't abuse the exploit even though i knew it would get rich, feel free to do it if you wish.


Uh, Tech? And intact armor plates aren't an exploit any more than insurance fraud is when it's possible due to changing markets.


So you are saying its ok to blow up cheap ships and salvage them afterwards for a chance to get something thats worth double the isk of their whole hull ?

You just said it there yourself..

CHANCE

There is a chance you will make 2x the ISK, but it is not a given...
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#94 - 2012-06-25 02:25:05 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Are you serious ?
Its a flawed game mechanic if you MAKE isk by LOSING isk....

That's equivalent of buying npc trade goods in 1 station for 10isk each and selling them in the same station for 100isk each


Sounds exactly like the NPC PI goods thing. You could buy POSes from NPCs, reprocess them, and sell the components for a fairly large profit.

Nobody got stuff taken away unless they did it after CCP announced that they should stop.


EDIT: People have always made huge profits from patches. The FW thing is no different.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2012-06-25 02:25:26 UTC
At worst you will lose a few mil, at best you will double your isk.
The % of success is in your favor

Devs didn't intend us to buy stacks of AFs and play lottery in space with them by ourselves, did they ?
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2012-06-25 02:25:36 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Are you serious ?
Its a flawed game mechanic if you MAKE isk by LOSING isk....

That's equivalent of buying npc trade goods in 1 station for 10isk each and selling them in the same station for 100isk each

No, since that would INTRODUCE ISK into the game's economy, which the Goons did not do. They massively added to theirs, at the cost of taking a lot of other ISK out of the general economy.

People got assets and parted with their ISK for it. The issue is that the Goons could get a vast amount of these assets due to the positive LP feedback. Different issue causing something that you see as a similar outcome.

I am in the Amarr militia. I've actually been hurt by this due to having to face the Minmitar at Tier 4/5. However I still do not see what the Goons did as being illegal.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#97 - 2012-06-25 02:26:52 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
At worst you will lose a few mil, at best you will double your isk.
The % of success is in your favor

Devs didn't intend us to buy stacks of AFs and play lottery in space with them by ourselves, did they ?


Nope. But unintentional mechanic != Exploit. It's called Emergent gameplay

See:
Jetcans
AFK Cloaking
Tech
And so many more.

EDIT:
Can't believe I forgot the biggest unintended mechanic of them all. Local as an Intel tool

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#98 - 2012-06-25 02:30:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
RubyPorto wrote:
Information Agent wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


You flew right over the part where CCP was warned about the problem before it hit TQ. That's kind of the whole ballgame. The players did their diligence by telling CCP about a thing. CCP ignored the players. The effects of the thing are on CCP's head.


just because an exploit got reported in good time to prevent it making it onto TQ, doesn't mean its ok to then use the unfixed exploit and expect to keep everything gained from it. "Wah, we told them it was broke, we used it knowing it was broke and now they take our moneys, why???? waaah" is all it sounds like from my balcony in common sense land. Its not on CCP's head at all, its on the head of every person who knowingly abused an exploit, they were the ones planning, preparing and carrying out the act after all.

In my honest opinion, using an exploit that you have previous knowledge from the test server of in conjunction with knowing that it is indeed an 'exploit' by very definition should result in a permanent ban of the account/s and account holders using said exploit and total reversal of all ill-gotten gains received via use of the exploit.

After all, there no telling how many totally unconnected people were affected by the use of this exploit, they may be out of pocket, they may have had enough of hearing about goons constantly and quit, or they may be put off by the fact that there is that much high level organisation going into gaming a system to an advantage. It would seriously put me off wanting to play if I was new to the game and heard people were in serious planning sessions, speadsheets an all, on how to gain vitual currency from a loophole/exploit in a game I was enjoying. Theres really no telling how far the ripples from something like this travel.


We can't know it's broken unless


we abuse the hell out of it ouerselves. Hoe dare CCP punish us for this service.


Is that the spin youre going for?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-06-25 02:32:07 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
At worst you will lose a few mil, at best you will double your isk.
The % of success is in your favor

Devs didn't intend us to buy stacks of AFs and play lottery in space with them by ourselves, did they ?


Nope. But unintentional mechanic != Exploit. It's called Emergent gameplay

See:
Jetcans
AFK Cloaking
Tech
And so many more.

The Devs didn't INTEND for Mittens to setup a moon goo cartel and have the north sit on an isk gathering machine (I don't say printing as they don't create isk, just gain it for the resource).
The Devs thought it would foster conflict as the alliances in the south (e.g. AAA, Atlas etc...) would fight to gain those moons. Instead what has happened is that the alliances in the north have held them for such a length of time that they have built sizable war chests to use in defending these moons and as a result can

1) establish a price fixing cartel
2) throw cheap ships to their pilots for event like burn jita
3) sponser the killing of hulks etc... so as it turn Hulkageddon into an ongoing event.

Intended outcome? No, but it is still a sandbox one until CCP alter the way moons work (remove them and replace with ring mining or similar) or have the resources deplete and respawn or change t2 production again to make the moons more balanced across the map.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#100 - 2012-06-25 02:32:30 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


We can't know it's broken unless


we abuse the hell out of it ouerselves. Hoe dare CCP punish us for this service.


Is that the spin youre going for?


Read Post -> THEN -> Reply

Try again.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon