These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

You really want to "revitalize null", "boost low"... then ball it up
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#21 - 2012-06-23 21:35:27 UTC
Xorv wrote:
No, Local Chat Intel needs to be removed. Fights could then occur more frequently off gates and stations at points of resource access (aka PvE)

Bingo.

But everyone's tired of discussing that.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2012-06-23 21:36:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Ituhata wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Pix Severus wrote:
I'm a high-sec miner/mission runner, If the changes the OP proposed were to take place, and thus remove gate camps, I would go into low/null a lot more often.

I don't see any reason to complain over this idea.
High-sec people get to see more of the universe without getting insta-ganked as soon as they enter low-sec.
Low/Null-sec people get more targets.

Where's the problem?


The problem is that it will require effort from the low/null peeps to get their kills then.

No it'll mean getting kills would be easier then ever, getting into an enemy system would be so easy even OP could do it.


How do you make getting kills easier when you remove the chokepoint system?

I fly a combat ship and go attack other people mining/ratting in belts and anomalies non-stop since there's no "chokepoints" stopping me or thousands like me from just roaming around all day killing carebears, the threat of being forced to potentially fight people who live in the space and can fight back no longer a concern. Duh.

On the plus side the "highsec tourist in a covert ops ship" demographic would go up
Tallianna Avenkarde
Pyre of Gods
#23 - 2012-06-23 21:38:06 UTC
Ituhata wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Pix Severus wrote:
I'm a high-sec miner/mission runner, If the changes the OP proposed were to take place, and thus remove gate camps, I would go into low/null a lot more often.

I don't see any reason to complain over this idea.
High-sec people get to see more of the universe without getting insta-ganked as soon as they enter low-sec.
Low/Null-sec people get more targets.

Where's the problem?


The problem is that it will require effort from the low/null peeps to get their kills then.

No it'll mean getting kills would be easier then ever, getting into an enemy system would be so easy even OP could do it.


How do you make getting kills easier when you remove the chokepoint system?


Because it puts the advantage squarely on the shoulders of the aggressor.

ATM yes the balanced is skewed too hard in the side of the defender. Being able to cage choke points means that at the very least you have advance warning of incoming threat, and best case, you have a choke point actively camped. The proposed changes favour agressors so that they no longer have to pass choke systems, and their movements will become largely unpredictable.

While this would have the effect of short term increase of ratter ganks, I actually don't see any increasse of :gudfites: if the proposal stays exactly as the OP puts it. In fact, it will also be a MAJOR advantage to the blob as with good scouts, they have a greater chance of getting their fleets in to strategic position with less chance of being spotted on the way in. Also, without gates, tactical crossjumpin and tactical bubbling, it also makes it a lot harder for smaller entities to fight larger ones.

And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell.
Ituhata
Killboard Padding Services
#24 - 2012-06-23 21:41:19 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Ituhata wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Pix Severus wrote:
I'm a high-sec miner/mission runner, If the changes the OP proposed were to take place, and thus remove gate camps, I would go into low/null a lot more often.

I don't see any reason to complain over this idea.
High-sec people get to see more of the universe without getting insta-ganked as soon as they enter low-sec.
Low/Null-sec people get more targets.

Where's the problem?


The problem is that it will require effort from the low/null peeps to get their kills then.

No it'll mean getting kills would be easier then ever, getting into an enemy system would be so easy even OP could do it.


How do you make getting kills easier when you remove the chokepoint system?

I fly a combat ship and go attack other people mining/ratting in belts and anomalies. Duh. There's no chokepoints stopping me or thousands like me from just roaming around all day killing carebears with no more "chokepoints" in my way potentially forcing me to fight guys who could fight back. Duh.

On the plus side the "highsec tourist in a covert ops ship" demographic would go up



Oh my, they might have to HTFU and learn to use DSCAN, just like the guys in high sec are supposed to be doing now. PS, the guys that fight back have probes, interdictors and interceptors...I'm sure we can come up with some combination to make it effective for hunting baddies without relying on gate mechanics. Of course, it requires a little more skill but that shouldn't be a problem for the most intelligent gaming community in the world.
Ituhata
Killboard Padding Services
#25 - 2012-06-23 21:45:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ituhata
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:


Because it puts the advantage squarely on the shoulders of the aggressor.

ATM yes the balanced is skewed too hard in the side of the defender. Being able to cage choke points means that at the very least you have advance warning of incoming threat, and best case, you have a choke point actively camped. The proposed changes favour agressors so that they no longer have to pass choke systems, and their movements will become largely unpredictable.

While this would have the effect of short term increase of ratter ganks, I actually don't see any increasse of :gudfites: if the proposal stays exactly as the OP puts it. In fact, it will also be a MAJOR advantage to the blob as with good scouts, they have a greater chance of getting their fleets in to strategic position with less chance of being spotted on the way in. Also, without gates, tactical crossjumpin and tactical bubbling, it also makes it a lot harder for smaller entities to fight larger ones.



As I said, it might actually force the nullbears to do exactly what this very same community is asking the minerbears in hisec to do. See, in highsec its pretty much the same as not having local because of all the noise, and essentially forces them to use dscan. So I really shouldn't be hearing any bleating from anyone that you might have to keep your dscan active to outfox these new aggressors of the proposed change.

As far as gudfites, the only difference i see is when a timer comes down to 0, instead of piling 700 people on top of the expected ingate you might actually have to make your stand on the station or ihub.

As for fleet fights, probes, interdictors, interceptors. LEarn to use them.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#26 - 2012-06-23 21:46:13 UTC
Ituhata wrote:
I'm sure we can come up with some combination to make it effective for hunting baddies without relying on gate mechanics.


Unless you plan to sit a dictor/ceptor on every carebear in the region, I don't see what you could do. Should I also mention that dictors/ceptors are very vulnerable, and will die horribly to a determined carebear ganker in, say, a Vagabond or Cynabal? Or hell, since there is nothing stopping it from coming in, even a Bhaalgorn.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-06-23 21:48:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Ituhata wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

I fly a combat ship and go attack other people mining/ratting in belts and anomalies. Duh. There's no chokepoints stopping me or thousands like me from just roaming around all day killing carebears with no more "chokepoints" in my way potentially forcing me to fight guys who could fight back. Duh.

On the plus side the "highsec tourist in a covert ops ship" demographic would go up


Oh my, they might have to HTFU and learn to use DSCAN.
I thought this thread was by an OP who was complaining about "drag bubbles" and others, all of which are easily found with DSCAN. My bad. Not to infer anything on his ability to "HTFU".

Quote:
PS, the guys that fight back have probes, interdictors and interceptors.

Interdictors are a nono since they use the fearsome bubble and the rest are useless if you can't get the enemy to appear at a gate and force him to fight.
Ituhata
Killboard Padding Services
#28 - 2012-06-23 21:48:58 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Ituhata wrote:
I'm sure we can come up with some combination to make it effective for hunting baddies without relying on gate mechanics.


Unless you plan to sit a dictor/ceptor on every carebear in the region, I don't see what you could do. Should I also mention that dictors/ceptors are very vulnerable, and will die horribly to a determined carebear ganker in, say, a Vagabond or Cynabal? Or hell, since there is nothing stopping it from coming in, even a Bhaalgorn.


A good combination. Does not mean send in one ship at a time.
Ituhata
Killboard Padding Services
#29 - 2012-06-23 21:50:31 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Interdictors are a nono since they use the fearsome bubble and the rest are useless if you can't get the enemy to appear at a gate and force him to fight.


So you cant set a bait ship, you cant probe someone down, you cant fleet warp in and get the point and throw a bubble up and kill something?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#30 - 2012-06-23 21:56:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Ituhata wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Ituhata wrote:
I'm sure we can come up with some combination to make it effective for hunting baddies without relying on gate mechanics.


Unless you plan to sit a dictor/ceptor on every carebear in the region, I don't see what you could do. Should I also mention that dictors/ceptors are very vulnerable, and will die horribly to a determined carebear ganker in, say, a Vagabond or Cynabal? Or hell, since there is nothing stopping it from coming in, even a Bhaalgorn.


A good combination. Does not mean send in one ship at a time.

It takes an interceptor 30 seconds to go about 50 AU across a solar system. It takes an interdictor longer. In that time, a ganker can do enough damage to kill any mining barge, and can probably do enough to break any active tanking carebear. If the gankee is not dead by then, since the ganker has dscan and local as well, he will see the support coming and simply leave.

Seeing as how 1 LY is 63239 AU, and it would take multiple hours at current warp speeds to get from system to system... what ganks are you going to prevent?

I, for one, would love this to be how system mechanics. Gank all the idiots.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#31 - 2012-06-23 21:57:29 UTC
Ituhata wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Interdictors are a nono since they use the fearsome bubble and the rest are useless if you can't get the enemy to appear at a gate and force him to fight.


So you cant set a bait ship, you cant probe someone down, you cant fleet warp in and get the point and throw a bubble up and kill something?


Have you ever seen a 0.0 ganker whose ship did not have the ability to easily get away from a trap?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Ituhata
Killboard Padding Services
#32 - 2012-06-23 21:58:51 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Ituhata wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Ituhata wrote:
I'm sure we can come up with some combination to make it effective for hunting baddies without relying on gate mechanics.


Unless you plan to sit a dictor/ceptor on every carebear in the region, I don't see what you could do. Should I also mention that dictors/ceptors are very vulnerable, and will die horribly to a determined carebear ganker in, say, a Vagabond or Cynabal? Or hell, since there is nothing stopping it from coming in, even a Bhaalgorn.


A good combination. Does not mean send in one ship at a time.

It takes an interceptor 30 seconds to go about 50 AU across a solar system. It takes an interdictor longer. In that time, a ganker can do enough damage to kill any mining barge, and can probably do enough to break any active tanking carebear. If the gankee is not dead by then, since the ganker has dscan and local as well, he will see the support coming and simply leave.

Seeing as how 1 LY is 63239 AU, and it would take multiple hours at current warp speeds to get from system to system... what ganks are you going to prevent?

I, for one, would love this to be how system mechanics


Its weird that you say this because people do the same thing right now. In fact, it usually takes longer because once the bait ship has something, they have to jump into the system then warp. So why is it successful now but not in the new scenario?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#33 - 2012-06-23 22:00:05 UTC
Ituhata wrote:
So why is it successful now but not in the new scenario?

It's not successful now.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Ituhata
Killboard Padding Services
#34 - 2012-06-23 22:00:55 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Ituhata wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Interdictors are a nono since they use the fearsome bubble and the rest are useless if you can't get the enemy to appear at a gate and force him to fight.


So you cant set a bait ship, you cant probe someone down, you cant fleet warp in and get the point and throw a bubble up and kill something?


Have you ever seen a 0.0 ganker whose ship did not have the ability to easily get away from a trap?


Dual prop dramiels really, but then there are webbers. There's a counter for everything, if you want to keep throwing up a new condition that negates my previous statement it turns out they make a ship that can counter it. Sucess will not be guaranteed but it is certainly achievable.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2012-06-23 22:01:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Ituhata wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Interdictors are a nono since they use the fearsome bubble and the rest are useless if you can't get the enemy to appear at a gate and force him to fight.


So you cant set a bait ship, you cant probe someone down, you cant fleet warp in and get the point and throw a bubble up and kill something?

Bait fleets don't force anyone to engage, they merely offer the aggressor the choice of doing so.

So let's say I'm in a 700+ DPS cloaky blaster Proteus and have effortlessly walked into my enemy's space. To catch me, the whole alliance has to shut down everything and form "bait fleets" in their own space until I decide to attack at anywhere at any time my leisure. They have a formed fleet, even a cloaked dictor sitting in the haven next to the bait. They wait for hours, because I was AFK at the time and a dozen people have wasted their evening. And I didn't risk a single thing to do any of this. This is Herzog's vision of "revitalizing null and lowsec" for newbies.

Being able to force fights, whether it's by killing a vital POS structure to force defenders to defend, or catching an aggressor on a gate, is an absolutely vital aspect for players who actually intend to live in low/0.0 space. Compromising that on what is mostly an appeal to emotions is a bad idea.
Ituhata
Killboard Padding Services
#36 - 2012-06-23 22:02:40 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Ituhata wrote:
So why is it successful now but not in the new scenario?

It's not successful now.



Not to say you're wrong, but I've been in gangs that have done this quite a few times so I am finding your statement hard to buy.
Ituhata
Killboard Padding Services
#37 - 2012-06-23 22:03:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ituhata
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Ituhata wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Interdictors are a nono since they use the fearsome bubble and the rest are useless if you can't get the enemy to appear at a gate and force him to fight.


So you cant set a bait ship, you cant probe someone down, you cant fleet warp in and get the point and throw a bubble up and kill something?

Bait fleets don't force anyone to engage, they merely offer the aggressor the choice of doing so.

So let's say I'm in a 700+ DPS cloaky blaster Proteus and have effortlessly walked into my enemy's space. To catch me, the whole alliance has to shut down everything and form "bait fleets" in their own space until I decide to attack at anywhere at any time my leisure. They have a formed fleet, even a cloaked dictor sitting in the haven next to the bait. They wait for hours, because I was AFK at the time and a dozen people have wasted their evening. And I didn't risk a single thing to do any of this. This is Herzog's vision of "revitalizing null and lowsec".


No worse than afk cloaking. Sicne they have a fleet they can now go wreck your alliances operations.

PS not every gate is always guarded so your scenario happens at the moment anyway, the only difference is instead of forming fleets they merely dock up and precisely nothing happens.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#38 - 2012-06-23 22:04:29 UTC
Ituhata wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Ituhata wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Interdictors are a nono since they use the fearsome bubble and the rest are useless if you can't get the enemy to appear at a gate and force him to fight.


So you cant set a bait ship, you cant probe someone down, you cant fleet warp in and get the point and throw a bubble up and kill something?


Have you ever seen a 0.0 ganker whose ship did not have the ability to easily get away from a trap?


Dual prop dramiels really, but then there are webbers. There's a counter for everything, if you want to keep throwing up a new condition that negates my previous statement it turns out they make a ship that can counter it. Sucess will not be guaranteed but it is certainly achievable.

Dualprop dramiels require 2+ webs from a frigate to be caught. 3+ from anything else.

Some other ganker ships that can easily GTFO: Vagabond, Cynabal, Curse, Pilgrim (sort of), Ishtar, Vigilant, Gila, Cerberus, Hurricane, Drake, all tier 3 BCs, all T3 cruisers, and any battleship that can project damage to over 30 km (most of them).

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#39 - 2012-06-23 22:05:37 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
lrn2scout I guess.

Sure, let me go get a second account so i can make sure whats ahead. Thats a definition of hardcore, and no it's not "just a game" for you if you have more than 1 account.

Here's an idea, maybe we don't want to be "hardcore" ? Stop trying to pull us towards your kind.


lrn2havefriends

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#40 - 2012-06-23 22:06:07 UTC
Ituhata wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Ituhata wrote:
So why is it successful now but not in the new scenario?

It's not successful now.



Not to say you're wrong, but I've been in gangs that have done this quite a few times so I am finding your statement hard to buy.

Not to say you're wrong, but I've never been caught in my Vagabonds, even when I jumped into camps. When I do lose Vagabonds it's not because of the trap/camp being successful, it's because of me being dumb and screwing up.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)