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exploit vs. sloppy game mechanic design
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Frying Doom
#101 - 2012-06-24 14:11:51 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
So do we continue the 4x4 thread here now that its locked?

Shhh mustn't talk about moderation.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#102 - 2012-06-24 14:11:52 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Gibbo3771 wrote:
Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot.

Like insurance fraud, the whole PI and PA debacle, tracking titans and the like, of which nobody I've heard about have been even remotely punished?

Yes all very good past road signs of what NOT to do.

So when are the people who did that going to get their punishment, then?

The people who did that were smaller offenders and didn't smear CCP's face in it. The LP scam is worse than the POS guys ever did.


Guess CCP got tired of being taken advantage of?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Frying Doom
#103 - 2012-06-24 14:15:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:


Guess CCP got tired of being taken advantage of?

Not real good for CCP's public face. They get accused of supporting a large alliance over the War dec thing and now a week later members of the same alliance are rubbing their face in it.

They really didn't need this one now.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Mishraile Viliana
Doomheim
#104 - 2012-06-24 14:21:41 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Gibbo3771 wrote:
Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot.

Like insurance fraud, the whole PI and PA debacle, tracking titans and the like, of which nobody I've heard about have been even remotely punished?


Main difference as far as I can see is that for those CCP applied a patch and they were no longer possible, with the current issue there was a patch to counter the ridiculous amounts of LP that was being generated by this scheme and goons went out of their way to figure out how they could continue.
Dave Stark
#105 - 2012-06-24 14:26:53 UTC
Mishraile Viliana wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Gibbo3771 wrote:
Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot.

Like insurance fraud, the whole PI and PA debacle, tracking titans and the like, of which nobody I've heard about have been even remotely punished?


Main difference as far as I can see is that for those CCP applied a patch and they were no longer possible, with the current issue there was a patch to counter the ridiculous amounts of LP that was being generated by this scheme and goons went out of their way to figure out how they could continue.


because if they could continue, ccp needed to be notified that they failed. right?
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#106 - 2012-06-24 14:39:10 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?


I think its pretty damn obvious this was not CCP's intention.


Delen Ormand wrote:
Wait, didn't the bankers make a shitload of money from fraud, then get bailed out with a shitload more money taken from the taxpayer and never really suffer any legal consequences for it?


Essentially, yes. Following the op's logic you should just pat them on the back and tell em "Good game guys!". I mean, they were just using the game mechanics, right? -.-



Other exploits that are not CCP's intention :
- speed tanking FW missions in unarmed frigates.
- afk mining ice 23/7
- extreeme blobs of supercarriers killing everything
- titans tracking frigates and cruisers.
- no industry in null sec

Some of these have been fixed, but, never did they punish the once that used these superior game mechanics
Indo Nira
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2012-06-24 14:43:21 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Gaming Exploit: any action which deliberately abuses a gaming mechanic in an way not intended by the developer for an advantage over other players. Frankly, it was obvious that this was not the intended use of this mechanic.. Instead of immediately reporting the bug or problem they took the "bob" approach and exploited it.

How does this situation compare to, say, insurance frauding, buying and refining PA, or the whole PI debacle?



how about you open your own thread about this and take this discussion there. ok? you might get your answers there
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC
#108 - 2012-06-24 14:44:07 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?


I think its pretty damn obvious this was not CCP's intention.


Delen Ormand wrote:
Wait, didn't the bankers make a shitload of money from fraud, then get bailed out with a shitload more money taken from the taxpayer and never really suffer any legal consequences for it?


Essentially, yes. Following the op's logic you should just pat them on the back and tell em "Good game guys!". I mean, they were just using the game mechanics, right? -.-



Other exploits that are not CCP's intention :
- speed tanking FW missions in unarmed frigates.
- afk mining ice 23/7
- extreeme blobs of supercarriers killing everything
- titans tracking frigates and cruisers.
- no industry in null sec

Some of these have been fixed, but, never did they punish the once that used these superior game mechanics


-speed tanking a site is within game mechanics, all the techniques are there and have been used in pve/pvp for years
-afk mining is like using autopilot, lets remove autopilot then
-actually, now people have a bunch of useless expensive ships
-same as above
-how is that an exploit

The punishment with the above comes with the fixes you listed....
Mishraile Viliana
Doomheim
#109 - 2012-06-24 14:51:49 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
because if they could continue, ccp needed to be notified that they failed. right?



The scale it was done after the initial adjustment was well beyond anything that could be considered for notification purposes. That might have worked if they limited to a few billion instead of trillions.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2012-06-24 14:57:52 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
The people who did that were smaller offenders and didn't smear CCP's face in it. The LP scam is worse than the POS guys ever did.

The insurance fraud helped depress mineral prices for years though, as did the drone regions through gunmining. PA also helped make sure nocx never rose much above 900. These three things have probably had more of an effect on the economy as a whole (and as a result the profitability of the miners as a profession) than anything else we've talked about so far.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#111 - 2012-06-24 14:58:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
This argument is inevitably partisan. If you like goons (or are a goon) it seems to be making excuses is the order of the day, if you don't like the goons (or do like the idea that CCP provide some oversight for their game) then a certain degree of schadenfreude seems to be the doctor's orders. At this point though the discussion is getting boring. The game mechanics involved were clearly twisted in ways CCP don't approve of, and their developer on the spot has already stated they would be in their rights to punish on breach of the rules.

For my part, I think its creative abuse for sure. The market manipulation/exploit was cunning. I don't really like the lp-duping/double-counting thing though (that was obviously broken as all hell) - and the admission of keyboard macro abuse during the cash out is distasteful. But yeah, CCP is in a bind here.

If they punish the goons appropriately the goonswarm is going to go mental. Threadnaughts and summer of tears etc. Threats of negative PR -mass unsubs - and all that, hell goons might even show up and shoot the jita monument (once the wardec 1.1 change strips them of all unwanted opposition in hisec).

If they don't punish appropriately (returning the loots, letting off the perpetrators with the lightest of slaps) then everyone else will be thinking that goons are treated with kid gloves and let off for things that other players would be ban-hammered mercilessly for.

Goons are already the CCP poster children for emergent gameplay (ie griefing hisec) and lauded in the gaming press and development conferences by CCP officials - and if they don't get an appropriate punishment for an exploit on this truly staggering scale then :shrug: I guess a lot of players may be considering their subscriptions anyway, Eve as a sandbox economic simulation becomes a lot less attractive for many when its clear that the largest alliance in the space has already rigged the game beyond any significant chance they will ever lose their position of absolute dominance.

So this is probably the "great war" we've all been missing the last few years, and its not a clash of spaceships in 0.0, its not propaganda and plots laid at BBQ's in 2006, its not about the CSM and stacking the player council and its not about G19 macro's hammering out LP offer accepts for 28 hours straight,

Its pretty much a war for the soul of Eve Online and at the end of it we'll know whether its truly CCP the developer or Goons the something awful forums mega-alliance, that calls the shots in this game universe. I think its probably the first time in the history of massively multiplayer online gaming that there has been a war of this scale and significance - and once again Eve Online is the forerunner of some truly emergent gameplay on levels of metagaming that would make other games crawl up in a corner and cry themselves to sleep.

Still lets all keep watching. After all, this time next year the goon economic cabal might be dictating terms to the president of Iceland!

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#112 - 2012-06-24 15:06:44 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:



Other exploits that are not CCP's intention :
- speed tanking FW missions in unarmed frigates.
- afk mining ice 23/7
- extreeme blobs of supercarriers killing everything
- titans tracking frigates and cruisers.
- no industry in null sec

Some of these have been fixed, but, never did they punish the once that used these superior game mechanics


Hm.. how good of a game would EvE be if they did punish/ban all people doing these things?
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2012-06-24 15:08:25 UTC
Almost everything Goons do is - self-avowedly, no less - an attempt to show people that all actions they take have consequences, and not neccessarily ones they'll like, either.

I'm amused that Goons are reacting so negatively to the undesirable consequences that actions they took precipitated.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Frying Doom
#114 - 2012-06-24 15:08:52 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
The people who did that were smaller offenders and didn't smear CCP's face in it. The LP scam is worse than the POS guys ever did.

The insurance fraud helped depress mineral prices for years though, as did the drone regions through gunmining. PA also helped make sure nocx never rose much above 900. These three things have probably had more of an effect on the economy as a whole (and as a result the profitability of the miners as a profession) than anything else we've talked about so far.

Possibly but the people involved didn't go out of there way to make CCP look incompetent.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Malacath Azaria
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2012-06-24 15:11:48 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:

This argument is inevitably partisan. If you like goons (or are a goon) it seems to be making excuses is the order of the day, if you don't like the goons (or do like the idea that CCP provide some oversight for their game) then a certain degree of schadenfreude seems to be the doctor's orders. At this point though the discussion is getting boring. The game mechanics involved were clearly twisted in ways CCP don't approve of, and their developer on the spot has already stated they would be in their rights to punish on breach of the rules.

For my part, I think its creative abuse for sure. The market manipulation/exploit was cunning. I don't really like the lp-duping/double-counting thing though (that was obviously broken as all hell) - and the admission of keyboard macro abuse during the cash out is distasteful. But yeah, CCP is in a bind here.

If they punish the goons appropriately the goonswarm is going to go mental. Threadnaughts and summer of tears etc. Threats of negative PR -mass unsubs - and all that, hell goons might even show up and shoot the jita monument (once the wardec 1.1 change strips them of all unwanted opposition in hisec).

If they don't punish appropriately (returning the loots, letting off the perpetrators with the lightest of slaps) then everyone else will be thinking that goons are treated with kid gloves and let off for things that other players would be ban-hammered mercilessly for.

Goons are already the CCP poster children for emergent gameplay (ie griefing hisec) and lauded in the gaming press and development conferences by CCP officials - and if they don't get an appropriate punishment for an exploit on this truly staggering scale then :shrug: I guess a lot of players may be considering their subscriptions anyway, Eve as a sandbox economic simulation becomes a lot less attracive for many when its clear that the largest alliance in the space has already rigged the game beyond any significant chance they will ever lose their position of absolute dominance.

So this is probably the "great war" we've all been missing the last few years, and its not a clash of spaceships in 0.0, its not propaganda and plots laid at BBQ's in 2006, its not about the CSM and stacking the player council and its not about G19 macro's hammering out LP offer accepts for 28 hours straight,

Its pretty much a war for the soul of Eve Online and at the end of it we'll know whether its truly CCP the developer or Goons the the something awful forums mega-alliance, that calls the shots in this game universe. I think its probably the first time in the history of massively multiplayer online gaming that there has been a war of this scale and significance - and once again Eve Online is the forerunner of some truly emergent gameplay on levels of metagaming that would make other games crawl up in a corner and cry themselves to sleep.

Still lets all keep watching. After all, this time next year the goon economic cabal might be dictating terms to the president of Iceland!


CCP were told during testing that something like this could happen & they blatantly ignored everyone. In doing this, they condoned the action wether they intended to or not.

In other news, how's business?

Before I forget.... What hair bleach do you use?
Wisdom Divine
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#116 - 2012-06-24 15:13:05 UTC
This argument is not partisan.

The way CCP is handling this, it seems the scale of the operation had precedence over the legality of the operation.

A true sandbox can only be concerned about legality, not scale.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#117 - 2012-06-24 15:14:58 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
The people who did that were smaller offenders and didn't smear CCP's face in it. The LP scam is worse than the POS guys ever did.

The insurance fraud helped depress mineral prices for years though, as did the drone regions through gunmining. PA also helped make sure nocx never rose much above 900. These three things have probably had more of an effect on the economy as a whole (and as a result the profitability of the miners as a profession) than anything else we've talked about so far.

Possibly but the people involved didn't go out of there way to make CCP look incompetent.


They did for years with reprocessing shuttles.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2012-06-24 15:18:27 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
keyboard macro abuse

Last I checked, G15/G19 were on the allowed list, as long as the user was still at the keyboard. Are you trying to start a rumor they weren't at the keyboard?

Jade Constantine wrote:
hell goons might even show up and shoot the jita monument (once the wardec 1.1 change strips them of all unwanted opposition in hisec).

So uh, your few "friends" would try to do anything if we brought down, say, a burn jita-level fleet?

I'd bet on them running away yelping like a kicked dog.

Jade Constantine wrote:
If they don't punish appropriately (returning the loots, letting off the perpetrators with the lightest of slaps) then everyone else will be thinking that goons are treated with kid gloves and let off for things that other players would be ban-hammered mercilessly for.

You mean treat this case like they did the insurance fraud, the anoms, PI, PA, gunmining in drone regions, neut logis etc? Yes, that would be heavily goon-friendly and totally in line with their reaction to other, similar incidents.

Jade Constantine wrote:
Eve as a sandbox economic simulation becomes a lot less attracive for many when its clear that the largest alliance in the space has already rigged the game beyond any significant chance they will ever lose their position of absolute dominance.

This sounds very much like a rumor. You wouldn't be trying to start a rumor, would you?

Jade Constantine wrote:
Its pretty much a war for the soul of Eve Online and at the end of it we'll know whether its truly CCP the developer or Goons the the something awful forums mega-alliance, that calls the shots in this game universe.

As does this.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2012-06-24 15:22:27 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
The people who did that were smaller offenders and didn't smear CCP's face in it. The LP scam is worse than the POS guys ever did.

The insurance fraud helped depress mineral prices for years though, as did the drone regions through gunmining. PA also helped make sure nocx never rose much above 900. These three things have probably had more of an effect on the economy as a whole (and as a result the profitability of the miners as a profession) than anything else we've talked about so far.

Possibly but the people involved didn't go out of there way to make CCP look incompetent.

So what you're saying is that it's not the size of the operation, nor the effect it has on the economy, but how embarassed CCP got?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Malacath Azaria
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2012-06-24 15:24:18 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
keyboard macro abuse

Last I checked, G15/G19 were on the allowed list, as long as the user was still at the keyboard. Are you trying to start a rumor they weren't at the keyboard?

Jade Constantine wrote:
hell goons might even show up and shoot the jita monument (once the wardec 1.1 change strips them of all unwanted opposition in hisec).

So uh, your few "friends" would try to do anything if we brought down, say, a burn jita-level fleet?

I'd bet on them running away yelping like a kicked dog.

Jade Constantine wrote:
If they don't punish appropriately (returning the loots, letting off the perpetrators with the lightest of slaps) then everyone else will be thinking that goons are treated with kid gloves and let off for things that other players would be ban-hammered mercilessly for.

You mean treat this case like they did the insurance fraud, the anoms, PI, PA, gunmining in drone regions, neut logis etc? Yes, that would be heavily goon-friendly and totally in line with their reaction to other, similar incidents.

Jade Constantine wrote:
Eve as a sandbox economic simulation becomes a lot less attracive for many when its clear that the largest alliance in the space has already rigged the game beyond any significant chance they will ever lose their position of absolute dominance.

This sounds very much like a rumor. You wouldn't be trying to start a rumor, would you?


You can not reason with the unreasonable. It must be the bleach.