These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

exploit vs. sloppy game mechanic design
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Dave stark
#61 - 2012-06-23 12:57:44 UTC
Ghost Xray wrote:
Dave stark wrote:


telling me i'm confused, then telling me CCP didn't make it. then who did? the pixies?

seriously though; CCP did make the method, and people used it. i'm sure CCP didn't intend for FW to have this kind of result. at the end of the day though, it has happened. CCP should have just gone "ok, we had a few teething problems with it, it's now fixed, carry on." we all make mistakes and CCP made one by releasing FW in the state it was. goons shouldn't be punished for CCP releasing FW in the state they did.

also if you justify some thing's legitimacy by how fun it is; ban all miners. clearly they're all cheating because they're making money by doing some thing boring.


I don't think anyone was really punished. There are some quibbles about "they took more they were supposed to" from someone who is still filthy space rich doesn't really make that much of a difference. They just didn't get to keep their ill gotten goods.

Had these dudes been banned you'd have a point.

And regarding miners... no, they shouldn't be banned, but they shouldn't get to be trillionaires for mining in high sec either (And I think Goons and co. are actively making sure that is the case). I'll chalk that up with "lame emergent game play" as well.


no, as far as i'm aware nobody has been punished, nor should they. however the fact that CCP are even investigating it....

how was it ill gotten? all they did to make the isk was sell lp items on the market. that's basically saying every one in jita has a wallet full of "ill gotten gains".

if people are buying trit at 1bil per unit, why shouldn't high sec miners be trillionaires?

i'm sorry but all you're really saying with your posts are "i don't like what goons are doing, goons are lame" which is pretty much what every one says to justify why action should be taken on the matter.
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-06-23 13:01:44 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it
But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves *snip* CCPCool

It´s not allowed to insult CCP and it´s Member, so i fixed your post!
See Forum Rules for further Information

ISD Dosnix

You're wrong.

Exploiting someone in EVE is not against the rules. We do it every day.

What these guys did was similar to finding the rate at which officer spawns happen and going around farming only officer spawns.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2012-06-23 13:14:24 UTC
Dave stark wrote:


how was it ill gotten? all they did to make the isk was sell lp items on the market. that's basically saying every one in jita has a wallet full of "ill gotten gains".

i'm sorry but all you're really saying with your posts are "i don't like what goons are doing, goons are lame" which is pretty much what every one says to justify why action should be taken on the matter.


Back to this?

It was ill gotten because of how they got the LP. If mission runners could bring haulers full of junk and pop themselves during mission to generate stupid amounts of LP, what do you think the general response would be from EVERY SINGLE Goon. Do I have to tell you?

My issue has nothing to do with the Goons in particular.

Anyone who drives their own alts into themselves for the purpose of blowing themselves up is "lame game play". That's not even game play, that's just stupid. We saw it with insurance fraud, which was lame also. The dude who self destructs his collection or 20k battleships to collect insurance or however that story went, that too was lame and abusive of the insurance mechanics. Was he a Goon too? I don't know, I don't care. It's the behavior I find lame, not who is doing it.
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#64 - 2012-06-23 13:16:19 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:
I say the goons did what anyone would do with the new LP store.

They figured out the best way to make isk with the programmed mechanics.

They did it really really well.

If they thing had been coded and tested properly, then they wouldn't have been able to do what they did to such an extent.

But it wasn't

That's noones' fault but CCP.

Correcting the problem is fine, but punishing those who showed entrepreneurial spirit would be a far worse blow than any hit the economy has taken by GoonSwarms actions.

The economy will recover itself in time.

But the sandbox will take far longer to recover if CCP acts too harshly in their response.



The sandbox is not being hurt, don't kid yourselves. It most likely would have been hurt more if this had been allowed to continue than stopping it cold and reseting the clock. Quite frankly, the sandbox will recover long before a lot of you will.

There is such a thing as Working as Intended though, and while this policy DID apply to the GSF, this was NOT what CCP intended. So they dealt with what they consider an exploit. Normally when people abuse exploits, they get the ban, but since this was a newly discovered exploit, they merely removed ill-gotten gains from the exploit and let everyone move on. While it may be CCP's bad programming to blame here, that doesn't mean that one gets to take the goods and run. If a bank makes a mistake in your favor, do you get to keep the money? No. Same principle applies here.

John Hancock
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#65 - 2012-06-23 13:16:31 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
Exploiting someone in EVE is not against the rules. We do it every day.

What these guys did was similar to finding the rate at which officer spawns happen and going around farming only officer spawns.



Massive difference between exploiting someone in the traditional sense and something in an IT / game design sense. =P
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2012-06-23 13:18:32 UTC
Oh, and before you come back with "he didn't get his ill gotten insurance iskies taken away, it's not fair, waaaa waaaa waaaa" I don't know, but I would have argued he should have had them taken away.
Dave stark
#67 - 2012-06-23 13:18:57 UTC
Ghost Xray wrote:
Dave stark wrote:


how was it ill gotten? all they did to make the isk was sell lp items on the market. that's basically saying every one in jita has a wallet full of "ill gotten gains".

i'm sorry but all you're really saying with your posts are "i don't like what goons are doing, goons are lame" which is pretty much what every one says to justify why action should be taken on the matter.


Back to this?

It was ill gotten because of how they got the LP. If mission runners could bring haulers full of junk and pop themselves during mission to generate stupid amounts of LP, what do you think the general response would be from EVERY SINGLE Goon. Do I have to tell you?

My issue has nothing to do with the Goons in particular.

Anyone who drives their own alts into themselves for the purpose of blowing themselves up is "lame game play". That's not even game play, that's just stupid. We saw it with insurance fraud, which was lame also. The dude who self destructs his collection or 20k battleships to collect insurance or however that story went, that too was lame and abusive of the insurance mechanics. Was he a Goon too? I don't know, I don't care. It's the behavior I find lame, not who is doing it.


still haven't explained how it's ill gotten. the game was intended to give you lp for destroying ships.

well, it is. every time you mention some thing you describe as "lame" it's because goons are doing it.

i've not been around long enough to know about the insurance fraud thing; you'll have to excuse me for having no idea what you're talking about. sorry.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2012-06-23 13:34:31 UTC
Goons are crying big Jewbal tears. It's working. Well done, CCP.Big smile
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#69 - 2012-06-23 13:41:03 UTC
OP is just another goon apologist. There was no nobility in what the Goons did. Enterprise and entrepreneurialism involve offering something that other people want, not taking advantage of a mistake in CCP's design. You insult enterprising people everywhere with that kind of description. Not that I'm surprised, considering the source.

Goon tried to reap another PR bonanza from marginal activities and got their hand slapped. Simple as that. They were not being heroic. Their smugness in the original post about this earned them exactly what they got.
Momoyo
Rivinshield Trading Inc.
#70 - 2012-06-23 14:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Momoyo
So how is it an exploit if they told CCP about it before it went live and CCP said "working as intended." I mean people made ridiculous amounts of money off incursions for a while, some people said it was unfair and too easy and other just went on and did it.

How would you feel if you petitioned CCP and asked them " Hey can I do x" and CCP said yes. The next day they ban you/ confiscate your stuff for doing X. Thats the point here. The goons made some money and then they lost it. No big deal they dont care about that.
Suvari Khashour
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2012-06-23 15:38:38 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
OP is just another goon apologist. There was no nobility in what the Goons did. Enterprise and entrepreneurialism involve offering something that other people want, not taking advantage of a mistake in CCP's design. You insult enterprising people everywhere with that kind of description. Not that I'm surprised, considering the source.

Goon tried to reap another PR bonanza from marginal activities and got their hand slapped. Simple as that. They were not being heroic. Their smugness in the original post about this earned them exactly what they got.



on the other hand, listening to all the Goon QQ'ing never gets old, but, when it comes to the goons, have to say, just because they got caught with their hands in the cooky jar, doesnt meant their not doing another half dozen things they shouldnt that CCP just havent caught up with yet Blink
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2012-06-23 16:01:17 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
By your logic Americans should be patting Wall Street on the back for their "entrepreneurial spirit" instead of being pissed over the economy.


Please note that not a single person on Wall Street, not ONE, has gone to jail over our recent housing bubble and other economic troubles. Quite literally we do consider them, at least from a legal standpoint, to be full of "entrepreneurial spirit" and thus not legally liable for anything that happened.
AureoBroker
Perkone
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-06-23 16:16:14 UTC
Abusing a sloppy mechanic is the very definition of exploit.
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2012-06-23 17:16:55 UTC
Xython wrote:
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
By your logic Americans should be patting Wall Street on the back for their "entrepreneurial spirit" instead of being pissed over the economy.


Please note that not a single person on Wall Street, not ONE, has gone to jail over our recent housing bubble and other economic troubles. Quite literally we do consider them, at least from a legal standpoint, to be full of "entrepreneurial spirit" and thus not legally liable for anything that happened.



"Flush out your headgear, new guy" - Animal Mother

If you actually believe that, then you got your head in the sand[box].

Nobody has gone to jail over that because the US legal system has been bought and paid for by the Federal Reserve (I'd argue the all the gov. has been) and guess who these Wall Street and bank CEO's puppets report to? That's right, the Federal Reserve.

The Fed still needs these puppets to keep the illusion alive that the dollar still has value for as long as possible. They plan on riding that illusion straight to the graves and give a nice 1 finger salute to future generations.

They don't deserve jail time, they deserved to be lynched.



Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#75 - 2012-06-23 17:23:37 UTC
Xython wrote:
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it
But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much....Cool



Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit.

Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you.



Lulz, if you don't understand the term Exploit, no one can help you.....Shocked

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#76 - 2012-06-23 17:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Beekeeper Bob
Zagdul wrote:
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it
But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves *snip* CCPCool

It´s not allowed to insult CCP and it´s Member, so i fixed your post!
See Forum Rules for further Information

ISD Dosnix

You're wrong.

Exploiting someone in EVE is not against the rules. We do it every day.

What these guys did was similar to finding the rate at which officer spawns happen and going around farming only officer spawns.



Look like even the sub-pets don't understand the term Exploit.
Look it up, see how it applies, and move on......Cool


And lol at the ISD, Not allowed to insult CCP? If that's the case, the game is really over....Shocked

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2012-06-23 18:04:37 UTC
Momoyo wrote:
So how is it an exploit if they told CCP about it before it went live and CCP said "working as intended." I mean people made ridiculous amounts of money off incursions for a while, some people said it was unfair and too easy and other just went on and did it.

How would you feel if you petitioned CCP and asked them " Hey can I do x" and CCP said yes. The next day they ban you/ confiscate your stuff for doing X. Thats the point here. The goons made some money and then they lost it. No big deal they dont care about that.


See, that's where you're believing the propaganda.

CCP wasn't told they were going to crash their own alts driving freighter full of loots into there other faction alts in order to get stupid amounts of LP with a very low ISK/LP cost, take that LP and completely hose up the Faction Wars reward system, crash the LP items, rinse and repeat across different factions, etc etc etc.

Had they explained THAT in detail, and CCP said, "Yeah, well, no kidding because that's exactly why we put these loyalty points rewards in there", then you have a point.
Patrakele
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2012-06-23 18:11:08 UTC
Not enough tears. Yes, please randomly ban accounts from that alliance. On second thought, ban everyone outside high sec, I require more tears for my space ship propulsion system and nourishment.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#79 - 2012-06-23 18:21:38 UTC
i too find it usefull to open dupilcate threads IBL?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Alexzandvar Douglass
Motiveless Malignity
Deepwater Hooligans
#80 - 2012-06-23 18:24:47 UTC
How many threads do we need on this, really? You do realize this is just free PR for the goons? Dear lord the amount of butt hurt on both sides is reaching dangerously funny levels.