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Where is the CSM? Do they support the sandbox or not?

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Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#61 - 2012-06-23 05:40:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
If goons somehow leave, ccp will create npc goons. They will be a non playable pirate race that lives in null somewhere.....attacking everything on sight and trash talking in local, i don't know really. I can imagine that npc goons will be the thing that will attract a lot of high sec players to null though. I mean, how tempting will it be to shoot something with a name Goonium Marauder, right ?


theyll go to Mechwarrior Online lol

http://mwomercs.com/forums/user/22079-the-mittani/

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Arcturus Archangel
Archbreed
#62 - 2012-06-23 05:55:30 UTC
CSM are weak and concerned only with gaining the favor of the crowd and seeking public admiration. Let's not forget free vacations to Iceland.

[Insert witty quote here]
Josef Djugashvilis
#63 - 2012-06-23 06:17:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Much ado about nothing.

Folk used this mechanism to their advantage until CCP decided to change the mechanic.

No animals were hurt in the making of this drama.

End of story.

This is not a signature.
Adalus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-06-23 07:04:55 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Muah ado about nothing.

Folk used this mechanism to their advantage until CCP decided to change the mechanic.

No animals were hurt in the making of this drama.

End of story.


CCP removed 5 trillion isk from the accounts of players who did not break any rules or use any bugs. That isk initially came from other players, not NPCs, and it was taken with a method CCP said they were aware of when they first discussed the faction warfare changes that allowed the isk to be made. They were warned by the folks making the 5 trillion during the process. The money was made by using mass market manipulation to change the price of items, and CCP expressly condones market manipulation.

Taking this money punches EVE Online in the sandbox for about 5 trillion isk worth of damage. It's heavy handed, anti-sandbox, and given that the 5 trillion story will probably make the rounds of MMO press like the other EVE heists have, removing the isk will probably blow up in CCP's face.
Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#65 - 2012-06-23 07:13:06 UTC
Did they really removed the trillions? I thought you guys were just joking.

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"
Josef Djugashvilis
#66 - 2012-06-23 07:20:06 UTC
Adalus wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Muah ado about nothing.

Folk used this mechanism to their advantage until CCP decided to change the mechanic.

No animals were hurt in the making of this drama.

End of story.


CCP removed 5 trillion isk from the accounts of players who did not break any rules or use any bugs. That isk initially came from other players, not NPCs, and it was taken with a method CCP said they were aware of when they first discussed the faction warfare changes that allowed the isk to be made. They were warned by the folks making the 5 trillion during the process. The money was made by using mass market manipulation to change the price of items, and CCP expressly condones market manipulation.

Taking this money punches EVE Online in the sandbox for about 5 trillion isk worth of damage. It's heavy handed, anti-sandbox, and given that the 5 trillion story will probably make the rounds of MMO press like the other EVE heists have, removing the isk will probably blow up in CCP's face.


I do not disagree with you in anyway.

CCP seem to be retrospectively punishing foilk for what at the time seems to have been a legitimate 'exploit'
However, it is their game, and they appear to be saying that the 'mechanism' was a design fault and that therefore no one should benefit from it.

Respect to you guys for pushing the sandbox to the limits.

This is not a signature.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#67 - 2012-06-23 08:20:50 UTC
I'm a CSM and I am a CSM because I love the sandbox that is Eve.

Problem is no one can agree what the "sandbox" means.

For example, I feel the sandbox means unlimited free war allies.

I also don't believe the sandbox means unbalanced miner ganking.

As to the recent market shenanigans of the goons, they admitted they were doing something they knew was taking advantage of reverse engineering the game mechanic CCP had created to create a stable market and healthy economy to break the market and economy. The knowing intent to take advantage of a "hole" in how Eve works is very goon, also not consistent with the intention of the EULA. So clearly the goons were intending to break the sandbox. Very clever and very wrong.

So we all want a sandbox, but we still have to have some rules to agree what it means to be in that sandbox.

So for me I guess I call for CCP to define what they think this sandbox means because I can understand how many of us have no idea what "sandbox" means.

I'm going to ask for a dev blog to share what CCP thinks sandbox means.

Please remember, this is just me, I have not talked to the other CSM about this and I cannot comment on what they think about any of this.

Issler
Kerist Lafayette
The Lafayette Family
#68 - 2012-06-23 10:32:47 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
CSM, where are you?


They're still waiting for the Mittani to tell them what they think, give them a while.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-06-23 12:49:45 UTC
No More Heroes wrote:
Graic Gabtar wrote:
We voted that you may speak. So speak!



Heh. You didn't, Goony Lol

Dodixie > Hek
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-06-23 12:53:52 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
I'm a CSM and I am a CSM because I love the sandbox that is Eve.

Problem is no one can agree what the "sandbox" means.

For example, I feel the sandbox means unlimited free war allies.

I also don't believe the sandbox means unbalanced miner ganking.

As to the recent market shenanigans of the goons, they admitted they were doing something they knew was taking advantage of reverse engineering the game mechanic CCP had created to create a stable market and healthy economy to break the market and economy. The knowing intent to take advantage of a "hole" in how Eve works is very goon, also not consistent with the intention of the EULA. So clearly the goons were intending to break the sandbox. Very clever and very wrong.

So we all want a sandbox, but we still have to have some rules to agree what it means to be in that sandbox.

So for me I guess I call for CCP to define what they think this sandbox means because I can understand how many of us have no idea what "sandbox" means.

I'm going to ask for a dev blog to share what CCP thinks sandbox means.

Please remember, this is just me, I have not talked to the other CSM about this and I cannot comment on what they think about any of this.

Issler


I would slightly disagree here. We didn't setout to break the sanbox, everything we did was specifically designed not to break it. The amount we stopped out, how we managed the markets, how we spread LP across the 4 factions. If we had truly wanted to break the sandbox we would have released this to goons as a whole.

This was profitable content that also served to point out flawed mechanics.

Pretty much what we do everyday.

Tieing back into your gankingn statement. No one has gotten ganking nerfed more than goons. 3-4 nerfs now depending on how you are keeping count.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2012-06-23 12:57:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Zagdul
Issler Dainze wrote:
The knowing intent to take advantage of a "hole" in how Eve works is very EVE.



I think that's what you meant?

Finding holes and taking advantage of them is the aim and goal for most people in EVE (giggity). The better you are at this, the more successful you are, depending on your definition of success in EVE.

Your answer was very diplomatic and you did well dodging the question. How about an opinion dude, you play a politician in a video game.Stop taking it so literally.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#72 - 2012-06-23 13:07:36 UTC
"Where is the CSM?"

Standing in front of a mirror, telling themselves that they are important.
Gul'gotha Derv'ash
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2012-06-23 13:07:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Gul'gotha Derv'ash
Graic Gabtar wrote:
CSM, where are you?

The last day or so has seen one of the most interesting things to happen in quite a while, with some of the broadest implications for EVE seen in many a year.

Firstly, CCP has stated that their predetermined "investigation" will result in the sandbox ethos being abandoned.
CCP Sreegs wrote:
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
Then we have CCP confirm that nothing wrong has been done, however they are still considering if the sandbox is dead.
Quote:
Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "

Peter says the players have simply taken advantage of cracks within the game, "and is actually very typical for EVE players. There are often amazing diagnosed guys playing the game. It is further submitted that it is respect for the creative songwriting here inside the house, "said Peter, in the end.
So not only do we have multiple public positions from CCP on this (if you include warnings in news items) we have heard NOTHING from the CSM.

So CCP:
- Have posted that they investigations are predetermined.
- Released news items warning players to not stress the game mechanics.
- Publicly confirmed that nothing wrong was done stressing game mechanics but they may act anyway.
- Assets have been seized despite CCP saying nothing wrong was done.
- Are messing with the very concept of the sandbox because they were publicly outplayed.

My question is, where is the CSM? Didn't we elect you to work for the players? What's their view? Do they support the sandbox or CCP's marketing department?

We voted that you may speak. So speak!



For all intents and purposes the Goon group that did this abused a system that they KNEW was broken or not working as intended. After they made 5 trillion someone leaked the information by accident, or did it on purpose to gloat about it to the devs. Only then did the Goons decide to write a post spitting in CCP's face gloating about how they abused said mechanic to make an absolute ridiculous amount of isk in a very short period of time.Now, CCP decides to step in and take assets (supposedly) from the players involved, and I assume anyone who the isk reached.

There are two problems that I suspect CCP had with this entire situation. The first is that the goons were raging **** tards about it, threw it in CCPs face, then heckled them in the thread many times over. When you **** in someone else's sandbox expect some fast repercussions. Secondly, this wasn't a "victimless crime". They abused a mechanic in game that gave huge advantages to one side in the faction warfare. The effectively nullified and disregarded any work that had been done in FW by people using the system as it was intended to be used.

A sandbox is something that the players usually dictate the goings on in the box. The devs of a sandbox try to have a hands off approach unless there is an egregious breach in what the players can do, and what the players should do. The goons crossed that line and then started to dance around like idiots cheering about it very loudly.

In my opinion the people involved in this are lucky they didn't get slapped with bans as well. Yes, this was a very clever exploit of a game mechanic, but it is still making the system do something that it wasn't intended to do.

If the goons had been even remotely humble about the situation I doubt CCP would have stepped in other than making sure this could not happen again. That being said, the goons are douches and had to throw it in CCP and the rest of the Eve communities face so they have to accept the consequences of their actions.

You also have to take into account that if this had been done by a non-nullsec power block alliance the people, and probably the entire corp/alliance, would have been punished far more severely than just having assets removed.


Edit: And goons, please stop having your god damn alts, pets, etc posting topics about this. You are just making matters worse for yourself. Accept the fact that what you did was wrong, and move along. I am sure you can find some other way to troll Eve again very soon.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-06-23 13:25:52 UTC
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:
Graic Gabtar wrote:
CSM, where are you?

The last day or so has seen one of the most interesting things to happen in quite a while, with some of the broadest implications for EVE seen in many a year.

Firstly, CCP has stated that their predetermined "investigation" will result in the sandbox ethos being abandoned.
CCP Sreegs wrote:
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
Then we have CCP confirm that nothing wrong has been done, however they are still considering if the sandbox is dead.
Quote:
Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "

Peter says the players have simply taken advantage of cracks within the game, "and is actually very typical for EVE players. There are often amazing diagnosed guys playing the game. It is further submitted that it is respect for the creative songwriting here inside the house, "said Peter, in the end.
So not only do we have multiple public positions from CCP on this (if you include warnings in news items) we have heard NOTHING from the CSM.

So CCP:
- Have posted that they investigations are predetermined.
- Released news items warning players to not stress the game mechanics.
- Publicly confirmed that nothing wrong was done stressing game mechanics but they may act anyway.
- Assets have been seized despite CCP saying nothing wrong was done.
- Are messing with the very concept of the sandbox because they were publicly outplayed.

My question is, where is the CSM? Didn't we elect you to work for the players? What's their view? Do they support the sandbox or CCP's marketing department?

We voted that you may speak. So speak!



For all intents and purposes the Goon group that did this abused a system that they KNEW was broken or not working as intended. After they made 5 trillion someone leaked the information by accident, or did it on purpose to gloat about it to the devs. Only then did the Goons decide to write a post spitting in CCP's face gloating about how they abused said mechanic to make an absolute ridiculous amount of isk in a very short period of time.Now, CCP decides to step in and take assets (supposedly) from the players involved, and I assume anyone who the isk reached.

There are two problems that I suspect CCP had with this entire situation. The first is that the goons were raging **** tards about it, threw it in CCPs face, then heckled them in the thread many times over. When you **** in someone else's sandbox expect some fast repercussions. Secondly, this wasn't a "victimless crime". They abused a mechanic in game that gave huge advantages to one side in the faction warfare. The effectively nullified and disregarded any work that had been done in FW by people using the system as it was intended to be used.

A sandbox is something that the players usually dictate the goings on in the box. The devs of a sandbox try to have a hands off approach unless there is an egregious breach in what the players can do, and what the players should do. The goons crossed that line and then started to dance around like idiots cheering about it very loudly.

In my opinion the people involved in this are lucky they didn't get slapped with bans as well. Yes, this was a very clever exploit of a game mechanic, but it is still making the system do something that it wasn't intended to do.

If the goons had been even remotely humble about the situation I doubt CCP would have stepped in other than making sure this could not happen again. That being said, the goons are douches and had to throw it in CCP and the rest of the Eve communities face so they have to accept the consequences of their actions.

You also have to take into account that if this had been done by a non-nullsec power block alliance the people, and probably the entire corp/alliance, would have been punished far more severely than just having assets removed.


Edit: And goons, please stop having your god damn alts, pets, etc posting topics about this. You are just making matters worse for yourself. Accept the fact that what you did was wrong, and move along. I am sure you can find some other way to troll Eve again very soon.


I had already been attemping to speak to CCP for many days before this, we just hadn't synced up yet. We had been done since the day after the cashout or so. We cashed in a few more things at T4 to use up our liquid ISK, but for the most part, the T5 cash out was the endgame and we were done at that point.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Indo Nira
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2012-06-23 13:30:32 UTC
Aryth wrote:

I had already been attemping to speak to CCP for many days before this, we just hadn't synced up yet. We had been done since the day after the cashout or so. We cashed in a few more things at T4 to use up our liquid ISK, but for the most part, the T5 cash out was the endgame and we were done at that point.




does this really excuse the fact that you abused a mechanic which you pretty much knew was broken. please make more excuses
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#76 - 2012-06-23 13:56:49 UTC
In MMOs, the Sandbox is a fallacy.

And if your bank deposits $10,000 in your account instead of a $1,000, you don't get to keep that extra $9,000. Even though the bank made the error, you are not entitled to keep the proceeds from that error.

Personally, we should thank the GSF for finding this exploit and reporting it, graciously surrendering any proceeds from the exploit itself nd preventing other from doing the same. The Mittani and the Goons are an example of real integrity and honesty, and we should give them a hand for their continued pursuit of making Eve better for ALL players. Thanks.

John Hancock
Josef Djugashvilis
#77 - 2012-06-23 14:07:16 UTC
If it had not been the goons, would CCP have dealt with it differently?

This is not a signature.
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#78 - 2012-06-23 14:39:55 UTC
Adalus wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Muah ado about nothing.

Folk used this mechanism to their advantage until CCP decided to change the mechanic.

No animals were hurt in the making of this drama.

End of story.


CCP removed 5 trillion isk from the accounts of players who did not break any rules or use any bugs. That isk initially came from other players, not NPCs, and it was taken with a method CCP said they were aware of when they first discussed the faction warfare changes that allowed the isk to be made. They were warned by the folks making the 5 trillion during the process. The money was made by using mass market manipulation to change the price of items, and CCP expressly condones market manipulation.

Taking this money punches EVE Online in the sandbox for about 5 trillion isk worth of damage. It's heavy handed, anti-sandbox, and given that the 5 trillion story will probably make the rounds of MMO press like the other EVE heists have, removing the isk will probably blow up in CCP's face.


Oh yes, the world is ending and the heavens are opening because of this. It's all CCP's fault for spoiling the fun of poor poor Goons. Go on deluding yourself, and make sure you toe the party line when you post. Because Goons can't do anything wrong, we all know that.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#79 - 2012-06-23 14:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
I just think its damn funny that Goons get caught making illegal trillions when theyre complaining about the money incursions make in high sec lol

Kerist Lafayette wrote:
Graic Gabtar wrote:
CSM, where are you?


They're still waiting for the Mittani to tell them what they think, give them a while.


Yeah he's busy in MWO beta

Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
In MMOs, the Sandbox is a fallacy.

And if your bank deposits $10,000 in your account instead of a $1,000, you don't get to keep that extra $9,000. Even though the bank made the error, you are not entitled to keep the proceeds from that error.

Personally, we should thank the GSF for finding this exploit and reporting it, graciously surrendering any proceeds from the exploit itself nd preventing other from doing the same. The Mittani and the Goons are an example of real integrity and honesty, and we should give them a hand for their continued pursuit of making Eve better for ALL players. Thanks.


Oh sarcasm, nice

Ban Bindy wrote:


Oh yes, the world is ending and the heavens are opening because of this. It's all CCP's fault for spoiling the fun of poor poor Goons. Go on deluding yourself, and make sure you toe the party line when you post. Because Goons can't do anything wrong, we all know that.


apparently not given that no rule was broken unless thats changed

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Mishraile Viliana
Doomheim
#80 - 2012-06-23 15:43:42 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
If it had not been the goons, would CCP have dealt with it differently?


Would it have been abused to the extent CCP felt forced to deal with it if it wasn't for goons?

Goons knew that what they were doing was going against the intended purpose for those mechanics and still choose to do so. Even after CCP made changes that seemed to stop it they adjusted their scheme so they could continue and after this point they lose the excuse 'we didn't know it wasn't intended' so they should be grateful they are only losing some assets.