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Where is the CSM? Do they support the sandbox or not?

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Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#1 - 2012-06-23 02:00:49 UTC
CSM, where are you?

The last day or so has seen one of the most interesting things to happen in quite a while, with some of the broadest implications for EVE seen in many a year.

Firstly, CCP has stated that their predetermined "investigation" will result in the sandbox ethos being abandoned.
CCP Sreegs wrote:
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
Then we have CCP confirm that nothing wrong has been done, however they are still considering if the sandbox is dead.
Quote:
Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "

Peter says the players have simply taken advantage of cracks within the game, "and is actually very typical for EVE players. There are often amazing diagnosed guys playing the game. It is further submitted that it is respect for the creative songwriting here inside the house, "said Peter, in the end.
So not only do we have multiple public positions from CCP on this (if you include warnings in news items) we have heard NOTHING from the CSM.

So CCP:
- Have posted that they investigations are predetermined.
- Released news items warning players to not stress the game mechanics.
- Publicly confirmed that nothing wrong was done stressing game mechanics but they may act anyway.
- Assets have been seized despite CCP saying nothing wrong was done.
- Are messing with the very concept of the sandbox because they were publicly outplayed.

My question is, where is the CSM? Didn't we elect you to work for the players? What's their view? Do they support the sandbox or CCP's marketing department?

We voted that you may speak. So speak!
Sara XIII
The Carnifex Corp
#2 - 2012-06-23 02:04:24 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
We voted that you may speak. So speak!

Between Ignorance and Wisdom
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-06-23 02:09:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
I'd like to know as to why are you so worried/upset over this issue ? Its not like its the end of the world and eve is going f2p with ship cash shop or something.

People who have been pushing/testing the limit of this "sandbox" might have finally hit the wall with their little sandbox shovel and now the people who build the wooded walls are telling the kids that you can't take the sand over the said wooden line.

It would be nice if people could just find another game to play if they are that bored but instead they look for a loophole to abuse whenever some new change comes out(apply for a QA tester position already if you are that eager.....).
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-06-23 02:14:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
I'd like to know as to why are you so worried/upset over this issue ? Its not like its the end of the world and eve is going f2p with ship cash shop or something.

I'm getting the idea that this is being interpreted broadly as a statement that market manipulation is not allowed. And this position has some merit when looking at the news blurbs alone, but the issue that separates this from other market schemes is that it wasn't limited to profit from a market item directly. To be profitable it had to draw in a clearly unintended way from another mechanic which had an unfortunate reliance on the market.
Sara XIII
The Carnifex Corp
#5 - 2012-06-23 02:14:59 UTC
It's always nice to hear from one's elected representatives. Really helps determine if I'm gonna vote for them again.

Plus, this is a very interesting situation.

Between Ignorance and Wisdom
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#6 - 2012-06-23 02:17:21 UTC
Seriously, how many different threads do we need to discuss the same topic? Can't we just put our thoughts in one of the existing threads and stop cluttering up that damn forums with redundant threads?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#7 - 2012-06-23 02:19:58 UTC
Maybe CSM are living their lives rather than trying to serve the handful of players who are affected by this? And letting CCP do the job of deciding on the way to handle this issue? Just a guess. Since the game does actually in fact belong to CCP, I mean.

Maybe if Goonswarm hadn't played this so publicly the problem would not even be there? Right? But of course a Goon can't go a day without a Goon-centered controversy on the forums.
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-06-23 02:21:35 UTC

It's one thing to play in the sandbox.

It's another to let the kids run around and stab each other with scissors.

Someone is going to lose an eye eventually.

It's the same thing playing out as with the wardec changes. CCP didn't predict someone using the mechanic to dog-pile corps into a war... forever. It's broken and needs to be fixed no matter who benefits. Some say, "It's Goon favoritism! blah blah blah.". Bullshit and they know it. If it had been -A- it wouldn't have been controversy.

CCP codes an ATM machine in the game that dispenses money when you blow up cars filled with aluminum foil. Goons got semi-trailers full of aluminum engine blocks and hired Micheal Bay to do the demolitions. Only the money wasn't being generated "out of thin air" it was coming out of the pockets of other players. It was broken. It got fixed. Assets got frozen and will likely just be reset back to the way it was before Goons started shoveling ISK and LP into their corp wallet with a backhoe.
No More Heroes
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#9 - 2012-06-23 02:21:51 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
We voted that you may speak. So speak!

.
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-06-23 02:26:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
I'd like to know as to why are you so worried/upset over this issue ? Its not like its the end of the world and eve is going f2p with ship cash shop or something.

I'm getting the idea that this is being interpreted broadly as a statement that market manipulation is not allowed. And this position has some merit when looking at the news blurbs alone, but the issue that separates this from other market schemes is that it wasn't limited to profit from a market item directly. To be profitable it had to draw in a clearly unintended way from another mechanic which had an unfortunate reliance on the market.


Im all for market manipulation as long as its not done by the loophole which ccp clearly overlooked. Goons did tell ccp that FW can be abused but it really doesn't make them special snowflakes....they still proceeded to do it knowing it was the lack of testing/listening on ccp's side.


Its a bit like me finding out that i live right above a large oil deposit. I then tell the authorities that this will make me rich, ofcourse nobody believes me. I then milk it until im rich enough and prove it to the authorities, they then freeze my accounts(or something) telling me what i did wasn't right. I then blame them that they didn't listen to me and that they are now ruining my life.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#11 - 2012-06-23 02:29:16 UTC
Consciously using an unintended oversight in CCP game design/coding to gain an unfair advantage over other players is known as an exploiting.

Was this a CCP game design/coding oversight: yes
Was an unfair advantage gained: yes
Was it an exploit: yes

CCP has every right to ban or reverse these transactions, ban the partcipants etc.. If the purpose was to test the game design, they could have done it on the test server. The purpose was obviously to gain an unfair advantage, to profit disproportionately from the design error.
Xenuria
#12 - 2012-06-23 02:46:41 UTC
If you had voted me in this "silence" would never have happened...

Oh well... Guess you guys will have to wait till 2013

CSM 12 Candidate
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-06-23 02:52:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
While by the letter of the law you break no rules but you still you abuse a mechanic in ways that it was not intended and cause Issues or unbalance some aspect of the game then CCP will be forced to do something about it.

Like any mechanic that has been abused over the years the first thing that happens is a nerf and yes sometimes CCP reverses the damage that was done.

The question CCP is asking is the intent of the players involved
If the players did it for one reason not much will happen to them if they crossed a line and went another way CCP may be forced to punish those players.

And that is between CCP and the players involved.
All we can do is wait and see how the dust settles.

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Tacyon
The Phayder Corporation
#14 - 2012-06-23 03:05:27 UTC
freedom of speech (sandbox) does not include yelling fire in a movie theater is what I'm thinking.

Not that difficult of a concept unless you're the one wanting to yell fire just because you can.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-06-23 03:06:43 UTC
Tacyon wrote:
freedom of speech (sandbox) does not include yelling fire in a movie theater is what I'm thinking.

Not that difficult of a concept unless you're the one wanting to yell fire just because you can.


In a sandbox game "Because I CAN" is a perfect justification to do something.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Luis Graca
#16 - 2012-06-23 03:08:44 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Tacyon wrote:
freedom of speech (sandbox) does not include yelling fire in a movie theater is what I'm thinking.

Not that difficult of a concept unless you're the one wanting to yell fire just because you can.


In a sandbox game "Because I CAN" is a perfect justification to do something.



1 of the reasons i like eve is "because i can" reason other wise i would play a cheaper game were that rule doesn't apply
Tinot
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-06-23 03:13:01 UTC
If you explicitly tell/ask CCP about a mechanic that you're about to use/abuse and they ignore you, how are you supposed to know this was an exploit? Nothing in the EULA explicitly bans this behavior. What else can CCP seize assets for, that hasn't already been annouced? Is CCP also going to seize all the profits from Technetium, since that was also a design oversight that's been exploited by players?
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-06-23 03:15:56 UTC
Vicky Somers
Rusty Anchor
#19 - 2012-06-23 03:17:03 UTC
This whole ordeal is starting to become embarrassing for all parties involved. Goons, CCP, CSM...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-06-23 03:26:12 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Tacyon wrote:
freedom of speech (sandbox) does not include yelling fire in a movie theater is what I'm thinking.

Not that difficult of a concept unless you're the one wanting to yell fire just because you can.


In a sandbox game "Because I CAN" is a perfect justification to do something.

If this is the measure of a sandbox and all acts can be justified by it, you are far too late in your realization that "CCP Has Declared Themselves Anti-Sandbox"
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