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make fire rate relevant
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lovebus
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-06-22 22:06:41 UTC
As the casual observer i see a fundamental problem in the railgun/ artillery relationship. Art seems to be holding all the cards in sniper warfare because of alpha ability. What is CCP's response to this? make a t3 BC that can alpha with railgun. what a ****** solution. make 2 weapon systems that do the same thing? As much as ccp goes on about ships that "barrage" enemies from long range therre doesnt seem like a practical aplication for that.

MY PROPOSAL: implement a mechanic where something detrimental and stackable will happen everytime somebody is shot with any sort of weapon system but give it a short duration. that way slower firing systems wont see the effects of this mechanic because by the time it fires again the debuff will have expired but faster firing weapons like auto cannons will continue to stack and make a real differance.

through this mechanic we could have railguns providing actual suppressive fire while artillery does the heavy lifting.

debuff suggestions include: very minor speed reduction, cap recharge rate reduction, fire rate reduction, tracking reduction, sensor dampening.

so what do you think. could we make railguns useful without breaking the game?
Detenal
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-06-22 22:18:18 UTC
No. The way the system is now is fine. If you think they are underpowered then simply fix the numbers involved to have better ratios.
Veronica Kerrigan
Surgically Constructed L Feminist
#3 - 2012-06-22 22:30:47 UTC
So I ungroup my artillery, get the bonus anyways, and flood the server with 8 times as many calculations as if I had them in one group... I see how this works well, I promise
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#4 - 2012-06-22 23:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Rails hold an advantage over arty in that they have significantly better damage projection, and their T2 ammo doesn't care too much if the ship is shield or armor tanked. (T2 proj ammo fires explosive damage, which is less effective against many shield setups)

They also have higher tracking and ROF. A tracking-bonused railgun ship with javelin isn't too terribly different from an AC ship with a falloff bonus, believe it or not.

thhief ghabmoef
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#5 - 2012-06-23 01:36:20 UTC
Veronica Kerrigan wrote:
So I ungroup my artillery, get the bonus anyways, and flood the server with 8 times as many calculations as if I had them in one group... I see how this works well, I promise

No same number of calculations.

The benefit comes from only having to issue one module activation command.
Unimaginative Guy
Dutch Squad
#6 - 2012-06-23 02:08:19 UTC
No, this would be bad.

Very bad.

Guns arent supposed to put affects on the target, that is what ewar is for. And in Alpha fleets your proposed rail changes would still be useless. The target would be dead before it got 1 stack of the ewar effect.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#7 - 2012-06-23 02:35:01 UTC
Alpha Fleets aren't snipers. They operate at like 30km.

Sniper fleets operate a little (almost 10x) farther out.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-06-23 02:36:47 UTC
lovebus wrote:
As the casual observer i see a fundamental problem in the railgun/ artillery relationship. Art seems to be holding all the cards in sniper warfare because of alpha ability. What is CCP's response to this? make a t3 BC that can alpha with railgun.


You should become less casual in your observation. Rokhs are comparable to Maelstroms in terms of turrets while also being much tankier. Nagas are superior snipers to Tornadoes and as numbers increase the advantage of a Naga over a Tornado becomes larger and larger.
Rip Marley
MANPENIS
#9 - 2012-06-23 03:11:05 UTC
It's always been my opinion that rails should have the highest DPS of all the long ranged weapons, since they use cap AND ammo without being able to change damage types. They would be the middle ground on range and accuracy


Arty would still the best alpha snd variable damage types while being capless but suffer from having the lowest sustained DPS and worst accuracy.


Lazors would have the best range and accuracy, while being able to change crystals to suit the engagement range on the fly. Their cap sucks but they use no ammo. They would be the middle ground on DPS
Bill Serkoff2
Tachyon Technology
#10 - 2012-06-23 03:39:38 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Alpha Fleets aren't snipers. They operate at like 30km.

Sniper fleets operate a little (almost 10x) farther out.

And are completely irrelevant because of quickscan mechanics and warp-in.

"The Cyclone and the Drake are two ships which will basically never be good for shield tanking, primarily because they have almost no lowslots in addition to shield tanking bonuses. " -Iam Widdershins
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#11 - 2012-06-23 03:43:16 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Bill Serkoff2 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Alpha Fleets aren't snipers. They operate at like 30km.

Sniper fleets operate a little (almost 10x) farther out.

And are completely irrelevant because of quickscan mechanics and warp-in.


And that relates to ROF... how? OP is suggesting that Alpha fleets are snipers. They are not.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Bill Serkoff2
Tachyon Technology
#12 - 2012-06-23 04:09:41 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Bill Serkoff2 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Alpha Fleets aren't snipers. They operate at like 30km.

Sniper fleets operate a little (almost 10x) farther out.

And are completely irrelevant because of quickscan mechanics and warp-in.


And that relates to ROF... how? OP is suggesting that Alpha fleets are snipers. They are not.

Just noting how sniper fleets don't quite exist, so one could easily mistake alpha fleets in their place.

"The Cyclone and the Drake are two ships which will basically never be good for shield tanking, primarily because they have almost no lowslots in addition to shield tanking bonuses. " -Iam Widdershins
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#13 - 2012-06-23 04:12:45 UTC
Bill Serkoff2 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Bill Serkoff2 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Alpha Fleets aren't snipers. They operate at like 30km.

Sniper fleets operate a little (almost 10x) farther out.

And are completely irrelevant because of quickscan mechanics and warp-in.


And that relates to ROF... how? OP is suggesting that Alpha fleets are snipers. They are not.

Just noting how sniper fleets don't quite exist, so one could easily mistake alpha fleets in their place.


But they work at the same rangers that Hellcats do.

RailRokhs, Thundercats, Slowcats, and IshtarCats (don't remember their cat name atm) are the current snipers of the fleet game.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#14 - 2012-06-23 07:42:17 UTC
lovebus wrote:
MY PROPOSAL: implement a mechanic where something detrimental and stackable will happen everytime somebody is shot with any sort of weapon system but give it a short duration.


The advantage of a higher ROF (at the same DPS) is losing less damage to overkill. Very relevant in PvE, but fairly irrelevant in PvP.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#15 - 2012-06-23 08:03:39 UTC
Exploited Engineer wrote:
lovebus wrote:
MY PROPOSAL: implement a mechanic where something detrimental and stackable will happen everytime somebody is shot with any sort of weapon system but give it a short duration.


The advantage of a higher ROF (at the same DPS) is losing less damage to overkill. Very relevant in PvE, but fairly irrelevant in PvP.


Ahahahahaha. Losing DPS to overkill isn't relevant to PvP.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#16 - 2012-06-23 08:07:10 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Exploited Engineer wrote:
lovebus wrote:
MY PROPOSAL: implement a mechanic where something detrimental and stackable will happen everytime somebody is shot with any sort of weapon system but give it a short duration.


The advantage of a higher ROF (at the same DPS) is losing less damage to overkill. Very relevant in PvE, but fairly irrelevant in PvP.


Ahahahahaha. Losing DPS to overkill isn't relevant to PvP.


Did you actually read what he stated?
Copine Callmeknau
Dirty Vagrants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#17 - 2012-06-23 09:01:24 UTC
lol suppressing fire

Lemme just load the 12G Frag into my rails Roll

There should be a rather awesome pic here
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-06-23 09:48:31 UTC
i have a better idea: let's make all weapon systems exactly equal in every way so that there is no situation where one is better than the other. the balance will be awesome.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Dave stark
#19 - 2012-06-23 13:01:25 UTC
rate of fire is important.

it directly relates to fleet size.

if you have a large fleet, take ships with faster rate of fire. obviously the faster rate of fire provides lower alpha but that's made up by the fact you have more ships. hence if you have a large fleet, take things with faster rate of fire so you can insta-pop ships faster.

got a small fleet, take slow firing higher alpha ships.

got a massive fleet, take faster firing lower alpha ships.

both fleets will instapop any target, the bigger fleet will just do it faster. if the smaller fleet tried to do this they wouldn't instapop anything.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-06-23 13:14:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Detenal wrote:
No. The way the system is now is fine.


It's better than before for sure, but it's still not interesting for other purpose than fit Nagas ans kill cruisers at 250km in a blink of an eye with ten Nagas.
But if you want to do it faster just fit 3 or 4 1400 T2 hotwizer Maels and look the dam thing go like pouf in one salvo.

Amazingly my Maelstrom can shoot his shortest range ammo and put 14K holes at over 100km. At that distance a shield Megathron (full gank mods) shooting anti-matter is just doing 1/5th of I can do with Mael.

Gallente need 725mm sized guns to compete with 1400 or Tachs, and Med size Rails need at least 375mm and 50% reduction PG/cap requirements to get useful some day.

And OP: NO

Over 3 years of posts to get a better stuff than the crap we had, yep ROF got lowered but now even thou rails are far from excellent large/small rails got better and can fill a fücking niche now.

Plz stop trying to make them the crap they were before, they're already the highest ROF of all long range weapon systems, they don't need more ROF, they need either ammo number tweaks or increase slightly their base dmg to get a little bit more alpha, no need to increase 20 or whatever per cent, a little 5% to large rails alpha increase and decrease small ones for same amount would be a good stuff (small rails are just omgfpwn and do too much dmg, decrease 5% wouldn't hurt them)

brb
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