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What is "Over-Tanked" for running L4 missions?

Author
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#21 - 2012-06-25 18:15:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
I've run level 4 missions in this fit.

Start with small targets and work your way up (BC and BS can't hurt you). Webbers are a priority. Orbit the warp-in beacon at 5 km (or a wreck or whatever), or the next gate at 500m. I just shoot, ignoring triggers.


[Tengu, Basic]
Power Diagnostic System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Shield Boost Amplifier I
Dread Guristas Photon Scattering Field
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
10MN Afterburner II
Medium Shield Booster II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#22 - 2012-06-25 19:38:53 UTC
cccs.... ewwwwwwwww!

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Mazzy Star
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2012-06-25 19:51:10 UTC
I get by with a pith a-type small, a SBA2, a faction invuln and a deadspace EM or Explosive hardener (usually I just stick with EM out of lazyness). That said, I have a full set of crystals with omega on that clone, so I would probably fit a third hardener if running without implants.

A Tengu keeping distance with the afterburner running mitigates a ton of incoming damage, so you really don't need a massive tank. On most missions you can just ignore all incoming damage period in a Tengu, but on the harder missions (or if you pull the full room, as I like to do in some situations), you just need to burn away at the start using your afterburner (and perhaps a bit of heat). Once you're at distance, the incoming damage will be dramatically reduced.
Boomhaur
#24 - 2012-06-25 19:56:15 UTC
Kolmogorow wrote:
Your ship is overtanked if you can finish a mission with more than 10% shield or armor (depending on tank type) and if you can make a small mistake without losing your ship.


You like to keep that little extra buffer of security I see, you should try structure tanking it's even more hardcore.

Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you.

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#25 - 2012-06-25 20:12:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
cccs.... ewwwwwwwww!

I really haven't noticed any major difference with flare / rigor rigs. I think they are overrated for heavy missiles based on my experience (I own many Tengu with different setups, heck I used to build them at one time). However, I do consider them essential for cruise on a Raven.

Besides, the point of the fit was to be cheap with all T2, enough to tank level 4, and low skill requirements. Remove the CCC and you can't use T2 perma-running. It is a fit that has been tested and not just EFT-warriored.

I stopped using this fit on an alt when I got tired of having to always orbit and deal with webbers, and the alt got some more skills (like being able to use a TP).
Boomhaur
#26 - 2012-06-26 00:30:27 UTC
Having flown a nighthawk which was passive fit with purgers for a long time and than switching to rigor rigs, there is a HUGE difference in applied DPS. Same story with Tengu with rigors/flare, more applied DPS, far better than the CCC. It is better to just spend the 70mil on the pithi c small shield booster and permarun that than to gimp your setup by using pure T2.

And incase your wondering how this applies to Tengu, the Nighthawk has 6 missile hardpoints and basically a slightly better T2 Flare built in with CS V, volley wise it's on par with Tengu.

Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you.

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#27 - 2012-06-26 02:38:25 UTC
Boomhaur wrote:
Having flown a nighthawk which was passive fit with purgers for a long time and than switching to rigor rigs, there is a HUGE difference in applied DPS. Same story with Tengu with rigors/flare, more applied DPS, far better than the CCC. It is better to just spend the 70mil on the pithi c small shield booster and permarun that than to gimp your setup by using pure T2.

And in case your wondering how this applies to Tengu, the Nighthawk has 6 missile hardpoints and basically a slightly better T2 Flare built in with CS V, volley wise it's on par with Tengu.


According to my in-game experience (and EFT warrioring) the only reason to ever use a Tengu in missions is if the following are all true:

- Long travel distances (either to the mission, or in the mission)
- Kinetic weak enemies
- No, or small amounts of, webbers.

If any of those are not true, you will complete your mission faster in a Nighthawk or a Caldari Navy Raven. I don't have a Golem, so wont comment.

The Tengu has a tonne of it's damage locked up in a bonus to Kinetic missile damage, and a lot of its tank comes from speed. If you can't apply either of those strengths, then those other ships will do a better job on that mission. The CNR doesn't have any of it's damage bonus in the form of Kinetic-only bonuses and its tank works just fine even when not moving at all. The Nighthawk DOES have some of its damage locked into kinetic, but its tank works fine no matter what and it can move fairly quickly relative to the CNR. Also: Drones. Neither the CNR nor the Nighthawk have to shoot at frigates.

The Tengu is a good mission ship, it has a lot of strengths, but it is NOT the missioning god that most people make it out to be.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#28 - 2012-06-26 03:48:29 UTC
Mazzy Star wrote:
I get by with a pith a-type small, a SBA2, a faction invuln and a deadspace EM or Explosive hardener (usually I just stick with EM out of lazyness).

that's what I call over tanked
Mazzy Star wrote:
That said, I have a full set of crystals with omega on that clone, so I would probably fit a third hardener if running without implants.

and straight up overkill

Mazzy Star wrote:


A Tengu keeping distance with the afterburner running mitigates a ton of incoming damage, so you really don't need a massive tank. On most missions you can just ignore all incoming damage period in a Tengu, but on the harder missions (or if you pull the full room, as I like to do in some situations), you just need to burn away at the start using your afterburner (and perhaps a bit of heat). Once you're at distance, the incoming damage will be dramatically reduced.


don't need to bother with pulling range. just orbit something and the rats can't hit you (okay keep some range from the webbing frigs, but they will pulse their mwd to try and catch up and you can kaboom them with fury in 2 shots)

Tau Cabalander wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
cccs.... ewwwwwwwww!

I really haven't noticed any major difference with flare / rigor rigs. I think they are overrated for heavy missiles based on my experience (I own many Tengu with different setups, heck I used to build them at one time). However, I do consider them essential for cruise on a Raven.

Besides, the point of the fit was to be cheap with all T2, enough to tank level 4, and low skill requirements. Remove the CCC and you can't use T2 perma-running. It is a fit that has been tested and not just EFT-warriored.

I stopped using this fit on an alt when I got tired of having to always orbit and deal with webbers, and the alt got some more skills (like being able to use a TP).


imo it just doesn't make sense to splurge on a tengu then only t2 fit it. especially for one slot that makes it easy mode.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Mazzy Star
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2012-06-26 04:32:22 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Mazzy Star wrote:
I get by with a pith a-type small, a SBA2, a faction invuln and a deadspace EM or Explosive hardener (usually I just stick with EM out of lazyness).

that's what I call over tanked

It suits my purposes. A 200 dps tank and a lolbuffer isn't going to cut it pulling multiple groups on the more difficult missions, and it's much easier to manage 2 ships when aggro is consolidated.

Quote:

Mazzy Star wrote:
That said, I have a full set of crystals with omega on that clone, so I would probably fit a third hardener if running without implants.

and straight up overkill

It's certainly not required but I have the implants already and have used them for years. I never suggested everyone go out and purchase crystals to blitz missions, but I'm happy to take advantage of them and fit a faction painter on my Tengu.

Quote:
don't need to bother with pulling range. just orbit something and the rats can't hit you (okay keep some range from the webbing frigs, but they will pulse their mwd to try and catch up and you can kaboom them with fury in 2 shots)


Range matters when you pull 100% aggro on a room in one of the more challenging missions, as I do sometimes when I want my alt to be able to blap choice targets at will rather than one group at a time. I never suggested that you need to pull range on every single mission, but if you pull 4-5 groups worth of rats, you will need to do more than fit a tank that reps 200hp/s and orbit a random rat.

On a more general note, I'd say that "over-tanking" only matters when you're sacrificing DPS to achieve it. ISK plays a role as well, but I'm really not that worried about fitting a little bit of faction gear on my PVE ships, especially when it gives me improved DPS (823 + painter vs. 744 in this case). That said, Tengu's are very easy to fit out. Assuming you have the subsystems correct (i.e., don't fit the buffer subsystem), your lows filled with damage modules (it's worth it to fit at least 2 faction IMO) and DPS rigs, the rest doesn't really matter. Fit an afterburner and fill the rest with tank to suit your tastes.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#30 - 2012-06-27 01:49:47 UTC
I've pulled full aggro with less tank (pithi b type, t2 invlun, and t2 em hardener) and eft is saying 336 dps omintank with pithi a-type, t2 sba, t2 invlun, and t2 em hardener. changing to faction invlun and deadspace em hardener is overkill. yea the em/exp resists aren't amazing, but angels nearly always miss when orbiting, blood/sansha in most missions are pretty bad about hitting too.

although I will say if I was doing the blockade vs blood raiders I'd kite zomg neuts!

and I will agree that it doesn't really matter as you can still fit a ton of gank on a tengu with a 4 slot uber tank. and tengus are awesome at tanking a crapton of stuff

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-06-27 03:07:54 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
imo it just doesn't make sense to splurge on a tengu then only t2 fit it. especially for one slot that makes it easy mode.

It's still pretty easy on a pure T2 fit. As for splurging on the tengu itself, even T2 fit it performs better than other BC and cruiser sized Caldari ships while sporting BS range and DPS.
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