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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Frederick Sanger
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1821 - 2012-06-22 23:30:23 UTC
Why isn't anyone at CCP answering the Goonphone? It just keeps buzzing.
SeaBassSA
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1822 - 2012-06-22 23:31:14 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Aryth wrote:
I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP.
.


And now it has turned into CCP vs Sandbox.


Or Sony vs CCP/Sandbox/Goons
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#1823 - 2012-06-22 23:34:41 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
sleeping is literally the least productive use of your time



Well, I'm off to be really unproductive, unless of course I have "THAT" dream again, then I might get a little productive, well see.

by the way I found this Angelina Jolie in your dreams site, while doing some in depth research for this post and found the following

Angelina Jolie in your dreams


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH deep breath HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Wipes tear from eye, nn


Tal

Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1824 - 2012-06-22 23:34:46 UTC
SeaBassSA wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Aryth wrote:
I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP.
.


And now it has turned into CCP vs Sandbox.


Or Sony vs CCP/Sandbox/Goons


It is a bit odd now that CCP is dressing up in it's best thigh highs and C-string for Sony that all this anti-PVP nonsense has started up.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1825 - 2012-06-22 23:35:02 UTC
SeaBassSA wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Aryth wrote:
I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP.
.


And now it has turned into CCP vs Sandbox.


Or Sony vs CCP/Sandbox/Goons

Sony doesn't make 4x4's, come on...Cool

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Russell Casey
Doomheim
#1826 - 2012-06-22 23:35:11 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Sven Hammerstorm wrote:
It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P



No they should tell CCP but before they exploit the cr*p out of it.

If you walk in through an open door a nick some ones TV and goods, then a month later walk in and say, hey you kept leaving your door open and that's why your stuff keeps getting nicked, then are they going to :-

A. beat the crap out of you and call the police
B. turn around and say thank you very much for pointing that out and teachibg us a lesson, heres a cookie.


Tal




People DID tell CCP before it was released in another thread. That is the point.


They also told them Incarna was going to be a shitstorm months in advance. I still remember Hilmar's famous "judge them by what they do not what they say" response.
Cybarite
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1827 - 2012-06-22 23:36:41 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Meno Theaetetus wrote:
I presume CCP have claimed assets so that they can isolate damage whilst an investigation is on-going.

This is not an exploit, we need to draw a distinction between an exploit and a market manipulation. What was done was within the rules of the game, it was all done within the confines of set game mechanic.

.... lots of text ...


You can pretty much classify everything under that "game mechanic" name space. When things go wrong as in not as intended, which is the situation in this case....you cannot hind behind "the code/mechanic is as they intended". The code can still be open to exploits and effects they did not expect to happen and never intended.

In the end it is up to CCP to determine if the results are damaging enough to warrant action. SOmetimes they do take action, other times not. Guess how this scale of exploration is considered by CCP.

Playing word games to look completely void of wrongdoing isn't gonna cut it this time.


This wasn't some mysterious vodoo, this was insurance fraud + market manipulation + forex. These are all totally legitimate mechanics. It is only when combined they form the JEWTRON. Goons formed JEWTRON. CCP could not handle the glory. To look upon his face was too much.

We thought it was gonna be some damn good content. I dunno wtf with CCP.


Funny you look at it that way...try to see my logic too:

This scheme was duping most players while they could not do anything back!
And not just because Goons are big and others are small, but because it wend trough NPC.
It was Goons vs CCP and near everyone else got financial nuked in the process.

Instead of a sandbox, where players go against each other however they see fit, this turned into Goons vs Sandbox!
Since the sandbox must prevail for EVE to have a future....Goons must loose!

It really is that simple!



so what you're getting at, is that you don't know what logic is?
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#1828 - 2012-06-22 23:37:33 UTC
CCP and Sony are secretly working to kill Eve. Eve is dead. Roll

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1829 - 2012-06-22 23:38:45 UTC
Russell Casey wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Sven Hammerstorm wrote:
It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P



No they should tell CCP but before they exploit the cr*p out of it.

If you walk in through an open door a nick some ones TV and goods, then a month later walk in and say, hey you kept leaving your door open and that's why your stuff keeps getting nicked, then are they going to :-

A. beat the crap out of you and call the police
B. turn around and say thank you very much for pointing that out and teachibg us a lesson, heres a cookie.


Tal




People DID tell CCP before it was released in another thread. That is the point.


They also told them Incarna was going to be a shitstorm months in advance. I still remember Hilmar's famous "judge them by what they do not what they say" response.


Indeed. It would be nice of them even to say something given they are going around seizing assets and not even doing so in a consistent fair manner. Until then we can only judge them by their actions.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#1830 - 2012-06-22 23:39:34 UTC
Holy Alcapurrias! 92 pages in one day. I haven'r seen this post count since warp-2-zero.

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1831 - 2012-06-22 23:41:39 UTC
Aryth wrote:

Inspiration wrote:


Funny you look at it that way...try to see my logic too:

This scheme was duping most players while they could not do anything back!
And not just because Goons are big and others are small, but because it wend trough NPC.
It was Goons vs CCP and near everyone else got financial nuked in the process.

Instead of a sandbox, where players go against each other however they see fit, this turned into Goons vs Sandbox!
Since the sandbox must prevail for EVE to have a future....Goons must loose!

It really is that simple!




I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP.

That is why it is content.


+1 Inspiration

And this is probably why "Burn Jita" earns praises while this caused CCP to kick sand in your face. It's content, but it's not interesting for CCP, it's embarrassing. Your actions should be against other players, not the sandbox nor CCP. And while you did profit from players, you used illegitimate means to get there, not to mention screwing with players directly by breaking faction warfare while you did all this.

And how can you say this wasn't against CCP when more then half the posts seem to target CCP directly.

I'll paraphrase:

- We told CCP, they didn't listen so they got what was coming to them

- The devs are terribad. They couldn't code themselves into their own function calls.

- etc etc etc

Hell, one of the posts from a goonie attacked the Icelandic heritage in general.



Jalon Kaladreel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1832 - 2012-06-22 23:43:14 UTC
Yet another epic player-made event in the best game around. Kudos to you fine sirs.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#1833 - 2012-06-22 23:44:49 UTC
Where is everyone hearing that CCP is seizing isk or punishing Goons? Chatter in here seems to imply as much, but I haven't seen anything official on it yet. Did I miss a dev post?

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#1834 - 2012-06-22 23:45:18 UTC
I don't really get the claims that it's Goons vs the Sandbox. It's really CCP themselves that are biggest threat to EVE as a Sandbox. Goons just like to **** in other's sand pits and knock over their sandcastles, but I've never seen Goons as anti sandbox gameplay, quite the opposite.

In fact this event or problem really came about because CCP created new content in another pocket of Themepark (Faction Warfare) and it mixed with the truely Sandbox element of EVE (The Market) and CCP lost control of the outcome and are seemingly not too happy about that.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1835 - 2012-06-22 23:45:52 UTC
Ghost Xray wrote:
Aryth wrote:

Inspiration wrote:


Funny you look at it that way...try to see my logic too:

This scheme was duping most players while they could not do anything back!
And not just because Goons are big and others are small, but because it wend trough NPC.
It was Goons vs CCP and near everyone else got financial nuked in the process.

Instead of a sandbox, where players go against each other however they see fit, this turned into Goons vs Sandbox!
Since the sandbox must prevail for EVE to have a future....Goons must loose!

It really is that simple!




I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP.

That is why it is content.


+1 Inspiration

And this is probably why "Burn Jita" earns praises while this caused CCP to kick sand in your face. It's content, but it's not interesting for CCP, it's embarrassing. Your actions should be against other players, not the sandbox nor CCP. And while you did profit from players, you used illegitimate means to get there, not to mention screwing with players directly by breaking faction warfare while you did all this.

And how can you say this wasn't against CCP when more then half the posts seem to target CCP directly.

I'll paraphrase:

- We told CCP, they didn't listen so they got what was coming to them

- The devs are terribad. They couldn't code themselves into their own function calls.

- etc etc etc

Hell, one of the posts from a goonie attacked the Icelandic heritage in general.





Because CCP chose an immediately hostile stance. They indicated very quickly they intended to interfere in the sandgox. So people naturally replied with arguments against that stance. Note, I have not once bashed them.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1836 - 2012-06-22 23:47:05 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
sleeping is literally the least productive use of your time

I'm gonna disagree and say posting on EVE GD is.
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1837 - 2012-06-22 23:50:58 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Where is everyone hearing that CCP is seizing isk or punishing Goons? Chatter in here seems to imply as much, but I haven't seen anything official on it yet. Did I miss a dev post?


That thought had occurred to me as well. I'm waiting for one of them to say that they made the whole "CCP ruins the sandbox" up just to troll.

Just when you think are simply fighting the system, you look up and realize you are part of the system.
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#1838 - 2012-06-22 23:51:19 UTC
Aryth wrote:

Because CCP chose an immediately hostile stance. They indicated very quickly they intended to interfere in the sandgox. So people naturally replied with arguments against that stance. Note, I have not once bashed them.

TBH, there's been a lot of good advice for you on this thread if you choose to reflect on it.
I guess it depends if you want to adapt or not.

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
None ofthe Above
#1839 - 2012-06-22 23:51:45 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
corestwo wrote:


Perhaps this is merely the first step in that direction, then. Which, really, makes it the first step in Eve's death as a game. Imagine the future of eve: Carebears mining veldspar, forever.

And nothing else.


Oh for the love of Chribba...

...never thought I'd see an EVE is dying post from corestwo.

Look, you guys that make a lifestyle of trying to push the limits have to realize that occasionally you will step over the line and get smacked.

I realize that all the emo raging about how you've been wronged is part of the "lifestyle", but give it a rest. Seriously it is embarrassing to watch.

Even Aryth talks about how "if you want to ABUSE something don't tell CCP" well, duh! Acknowledge abuse in the same breath as trying to act aggrieved. White hats, my shiny bald head.

I do give you guys some credit for pointing out problems, even as you abuse the bejeezus out of the system, but it's hard to feel sympathy for you guys at this point.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
DiscomBoBulate
ONTAP
Goonswarm Federation
#1840 - 2012-06-22 23:59:13 UTC  |  Edited by: DiscomBoBulate
I play EVE and not other MMORPG games because I enjoy the sandbox element. If I want to blow up another ship I can. If I want to manipulate the market I figure out a way to do that. These guys look like they figured out a pretty creative way to make isk. Kudos to them. That's what makes this game cool. It's not an exploit.

CCP knew about the potential issue, they should not punish a customer for using the game they designed. CCP just didn't believe that anyone would actually invest the time and isk to make it work. Well somebody did. They shouldn't be punished. Let them keep the isk. They earned it. This is what happens when your playerbase knows more about the game than the developers.

If CCP wants to kill this game they will continue to punish people for being creative. If CCP doesn't like the result fix the mechanic and move forward. No need to punish a player for being creative....which is what the whole sandbox is about.

No rules were broken. Let them keep their spoils.