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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#1801 - 2012-06-22 23:04:50 UTC
Did the sandbox just get filled with used condoms?
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1802 - 2012-06-22 23:04:57 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Meno Theaetetus wrote:
I presume CCP have claimed assets so that they can isolate damage whilst an investigation is on-going.

This is not an exploit, we need to draw a distinction between an exploit and a market manipulation. What was done was within the rules of the game, it was all done within the confines of set game mechanic.

.... lots of text ...


You can pretty much classify everything under that "game mechanic" name space. When things go wrong as in not as intended, which is the situation in this case....you cannot hind behind "the code/mechanic is as they intended". The code can still be open to exploits and effects they did not expect to happen and never intended.

In the end it is up to CCP to determine if the results are damaging enough to warrant action. SOmetimes they do take action, other times not. Guess how this scale of exploration is considered by CCP.

Playing word games to look completely void of wrongdoing isn't gonna cut it this time.


This wasn't some mysterious vodoo, this was insurance fraud + market manipulation + forex. These are all totally legitimate mechanics. It is only when combined they form the JEWTRON. Goons formed JEWTRON. CCP could not handle the glory. To look upon his face was too much.

We thought it was gonna be some damn good content. I dunno wtf with CCP.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#1803 - 2012-06-22 23:06:22 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Sven Hammerstorm wrote:
It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P



No they should tell CCP but before they exploit the cr*p out of it.

If you walk in through an open door a nick some ones TV and goods, then a month later walk in and say, hey you kept leaving your door open and that's why your stuff keeps getting nicked, then are they going to :-

A. beat the crap out of you and call the police
B. turn around and say thank you very much for pointing that out and teachibg us a lesson, heres a cookie.


Tal




People DID tell CCP. That is the point.



Ok so then before you you walked through the open door you heard that they had been warned that this could happen, but did it anyway ??

Look it was some clever ****, but you had to know the cr*p was going to fly ?

Tal




No, we didn't. As far as we were concerned, this was a rah-rah thing for the EVE storyline in general, with no long term damage to EVE. Everything about the plan revolved around that. So no, we didn't think anything would be flying.



Mate for some intelligent blokes you must be really naive, considering the alliance your in.


Tal

Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1804 - 2012-06-22 23:07:59 UTC
Landree wrote:
This is complete junk. Bumping something while webbing it is not an exploit and have been specifically okay'd by CCP.


he's talking about the triple-web Vindicator trick, it has nothing to do with bumping

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1805 - 2012-06-22 23:09:18 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:



Mate for some intelligent blokes you must be really naive, considering the alliance your in.


Tal



I have been around a long time. I have seen CCP step up time and time again over the years and say things like this are ok. It's just in the past 6 months or so I got the feeling it was more media driven rather than the old hands off CCP. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but it's not a new feeling for me.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
gulftobay
Mesotopia
#1806 - 2012-06-22 23:13:45 UTC
For some reason the end of a Pinky and The Brain episode comes to mind.

Well, tomorrow's another day.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#1807 - 2012-06-22 23:18:07 UTC
Jonni Favorite wrote:
Or the case of a travelling salesman with a gun license in Indiana trying to check in his weapon at a convention in NY. He is now facing a gun charge. Goes to show it's better to apologize later than ask permission..

LOL.

I don't know anybody with a gun license who thinks it's valid interstate. If the gun is in the trunk or in a locked case, no problems pretty much anywhere you go. On your person or in the glove compartment... another issue.

Now in Philadelphia you can quite easily get a carry permit. And quite easily take the offramp into Trenton NJ by accident, with no possibility of going anywhere but New Jersey unless you turn around and drive the wrong way on the interstate. And get pulled over by a Trenton cop and get booked with a felony.

That being said... nobody I know. I'm sure some people think a Montana carry permit means they can bring their 9mm in their carry-on through TSA on a civilian airliner.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#1808 - 2012-06-22 23:18:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Talon SilverHawk
Aryth wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:



Mate for some intelligent blokes you must be really naive, considering the alliance your in.


Tal



I have been around a long time. I have seen CCP step up time and time again over the years and say things like this are ok. It's just in the past 6 months or so I got the feeling it was more media driven rather than the old hands off CCP. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but it's not a new feeling for me.


I don't think the issue was with the principle of scamming or the isk or playing the markets , it is probably with the fact that you where helping prop up one side in FW, thus nullifying the efforts of many that where taking part in those activities..... and I hear a crying in the night form those who's 'work had been made null and void be this.

Not this isk factor but the but the players affected indirectly.

Tal
Laphroaig Talisker
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1809 - 2012-06-22 23:19:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Laphroaig Talisker
Aryth wrote:

I have been around a long time. I have seen CCP step up time and time again over the years and say things like this are ok. It's just in the past 6 months or so I got the feeling it was more media driven rather than the old hands off CCP. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but it's not a new feeling for me.


I guess it's their new girlfriend: Sony... you know, that hot-but-bitchy girlfriend who tells you to get a haircut, tuck your shirt in and stop hanging out with your friends?
Sven Hammerstorm
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1810 - 2012-06-22 23:20:34 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:



Mate for some intelligent blokes you must be really naive, considering the alliance your in.


Tal



I have been around a long time. I have seen CCP step up time and time again over the years and say things like this are ok. It's just in the past 6 months or so I got the feeling it was more media driven rather than the old hands off CCP. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but it's not a new feeling for me.


I don't think the issue was with the principle of scamming or the isk or playing the markets , it is probably with the fact that you where helping prop up one side in FW, thus nullifying the efforts of many that where taking part in those activities..... and I hear a crying in the night form those who's 'work had been made null and void be this.

Not this isk factor but the but the players affected indirectly.

Tal


i take it you are new to the faction warfare
Inspiration
#1811 - 2012-06-22 23:21:08 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Meno Theaetetus wrote:
I presume CCP have claimed assets so that they can isolate damage whilst an investigation is on-going.

This is not an exploit, we need to draw a distinction between an exploit and a market manipulation. What was done was within the rules of the game, it was all done within the confines of set game mechanic.

.... lots of text ...


You can pretty much classify everything under that "game mechanic" name space. When things go wrong as in not as intended, which is the situation in this case....you cannot hind behind "the code/mechanic is as they intended". The code can still be open to exploits and effects they did not expect to happen and never intended.

In the end it is up to CCP to determine if the results are damaging enough to warrant action. SOmetimes they do take action, other times not. Guess how this scale of exploration is considered by CCP.

Playing word games to look completely void of wrongdoing isn't gonna cut it this time.


This wasn't some mysterious vodoo, this was insurance fraud + market manipulation + forex. These are all totally legitimate mechanics. It is only when combined they form the JEWTRON. Goons formed JEWTRON. CCP could not handle the glory. To look upon his face was too much.

We thought it was gonna be some damn good content. I dunno wtf with CCP.


Funny you look at it that way...try to see my logic too:

This scheme was duping most players while they could not do anything back!
And not just because Goons are big and others are small, but because it wend trough NPC.
It was Goons vs CCP and near everyone else got financial nuked in the process.

Instead of a sandbox, where players go against each other however they see fit, this turned into Goons vs Sandbox!
Since the sandbox must prevail for EVE to have a future....Goons must loose!

It really is that simple!


I am serious!

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1812 - 2012-06-22 23:21:58 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
I don't think the issue was with the principle of scamming or the isk or playing the markets , it is probably with the fact that you where helping prop up one side in FW, thus nullifying the efforts of many that where taking part in those activities..... and I hear a crying in the night form those who's 'work had been made null and void be this.

Not this isk factor but the but the players affected indirectly.

I'd be, um. "Highly surprised."

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#1813 - 2012-06-22 23:23:44 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
I don't think the issue was with the principle of scamming or the isk or playing the markets , it is probably with the fact that you where helping prop up one side in FW, thus nullifying the efforts of many that where taking part in those activities..... and I hear a crying in the night form those who's 'work had been made null and void be this.

Not this isk factor but the but the players affected indirectly.

I'd be, um. "Highly surprised."



I could be wrong , do you ever sleep.

Tal

Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1814 - 2012-06-22 23:24:11 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Meno Theaetetus wrote:
I presume CCP have claimed assets so that they can isolate damage whilst an investigation is on-going.

This is not an exploit, we need to draw a distinction between an exploit and a market manipulation. What was done was within the rules of the game, it was all done within the confines of set game mechanic.

.... lots of text ...


You can pretty much classify everything under that "game mechanic" name space. When things go wrong as in not as intended, which is the situation in this case....you cannot hind behind "the code/mechanic is as they intended". The code can still be open to exploits and effects they did not expect to happen and never intended.

In the end it is up to CCP to determine if the results are damaging enough to warrant action. SOmetimes they do take action, other times not. Guess how this scale of exploration is considered by CCP.

Playing word games to look completely void of wrongdoing isn't gonna cut it this time.


This wasn't some mysterious vodoo, this was insurance fraud + market manipulation + forex. These are all totally legitimate mechanics. It is only when combined they form the JEWTRON. Goons formed JEWTRON. CCP could not handle the glory. To look upon his face was too much.

We thought it was gonna be some damn good content. I dunno wtf with CCP.


Funny you look at it that way...try to see my logic too:

This scheme was duping most players while they could not do anything back!
And not just because Goons are big and others are small, but because it wend trough NPC.
It was Goons vs CCP and near everyone else got financial nuked in the process.

Instead of a sandbox, where players go against each other however they see fit, this turned into Goons vs Sandbox!
Since the sandbox must prevail for EVE to have a future....Goons must loose!

It really is that simple!




I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP.

That is why it is content.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1815 - 2012-06-22 23:24:14 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
I could be wrong , do you ever sleep.

No.

Kneel before Zim.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1816 - 2012-06-22 23:26:56 UTC
Seeing as everyone knows Goons control CCP these days it was only natural that as part of our secret deep-cover plot to destroy Eve we'd get them to do it for us in the end.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1817 - 2012-06-22 23:27:05 UTC
sleeping is literally the least productive use of your time

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Alyth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1818 - 2012-06-22 23:27:58 UTC
BTW Aryth, you totally forgot to send your Japanese alt Alyth some spacebux. Please do so, tyia.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1819 - 2012-06-22 23:28:30 UTC
Aryth wrote:
I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP.
.


And now it has turned into CCP vs Sandbox.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1820 - 2012-06-22 23:30:22 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Seeing as everyone knows Goons control CCP these days it was only natural that as part of our secret deep-cover plot to destroy Eve we'd get them to do it for us in the end.


Stoffer got a damn good headstart on that with the Greed is Good? newletter. I started a thread in his honor at the time.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.