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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Rengerel en Distel
#1641 - 2012-06-22 21:06:02 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Aryth wrote:
The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.

Uh, no.

And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.


By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old.


You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored.


Perhaps this is merely the first step in that direction, then. Which, really, makes it the first step in Eve's death as a game. Imagine the future of eve: Carebears mining veldspar, forever.

And nothing else.


So would that mean that Goons killed Eve?

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#1642 - 2012-06-22 21:06:35 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Hey you have just to watch the fanfest videos to realize that what I say is true.
In CCP Sreegs eyes a botter, a cheater a RMTer and an exploiter are all the same cockroach to crush.


And apparently those who creatively use legitimate game mechanics are yet another cockroach. No big surprise after hooking up with Sony.

Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Perhaps this is merely the first step in that direction, then. Which, really, makes it the first step in Eve's death as a game. Imagine the future of eve: Carebears mining veldspar, forever.

And nothing else.


So would that mean that Goons killed Eve?
[/quote]

I wouldn't go so far as to say killed. Catalyzed, perhaps. The event that caused CCP to show its (new) true colors, perhaps. Killed? Not really.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1643 - 2012-06-22 21:08:02 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Aryth wrote:
The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.

Uh, no.

And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.


By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old.


You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored.


Perhaps this is merely the first step in that direction, then. Which, really, makes it the first step in Eve's death as a game. Imagine the future of eve: Carebears mining veldspar, forever.

And nothing else.


CCP are not out to provide you a testbed for theories and formulas but to make money.

You feel free to pee over the face to everyone INSIDE the sandbox. Once your emeralds encrusted willy shoots too high and trespasses the sandbox wall and wets the guys outside it, then they take a pair of scissors and cut the willy.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#1644 - 2012-06-22 21:08:02 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Aryth wrote:
The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.

Uh, no.

And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.


By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old.


You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored.

Blizzard being control freaks, what a surprising news.

I thought, however, that CCP was a bit better than that.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1645 - 2012-06-22 21:09:59 UTC
Pisov viet wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Aryth wrote:
The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.

Uh, no.

And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.


By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old.


You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored.

Blizzard being control freaks, what a surprising news.

I thought, however, that CCP was a bit better than that.


As did I. They used to be. I guess not anymore though.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
The Slayer
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1646 - 2012-06-22 21:10:08 UTC
Shocked.
Time Funnel
Just a side dish
Outspoken Alliance
#1647 - 2012-06-22 21:10:55 UTC
Seen this all before. An incorrect punishment handed out because the developers didn't get a fix in time. Marketing over-correcting due to bad press. Mass revolt with threatened revenue streams and further bad press problems brings in management. Some backpedalling and quiet negotiations.

It all could have been avoided by doing something appropriate when that voice under the troll-bridge asks you who is clomp clomp clomping over their sandbox.
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1648 - 2012-06-22 21:11:13 UTC
dw guys we still own over 50% of all of the tech in the game
ashley Eoner
#1649 - 2012-06-22 21:11:23 UTC
All I can say is....


HA HA





Keep crying it's amusing.
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#1650 - 2012-06-22 21:11:24 UTC
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
one must ask what a world we have wrought when white hats are shat upon.


The 5 people involved were not white hats. They were grey hats.

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1651 - 2012-06-22 21:11:47 UTC
Aryth wrote:

As did I. They used to be. I guess not anymore though.


You talk like this time it's YOUR game that got ruined. And parody of the impossible, by your former big guy. I mean, even scripting this episode people would find it not believable.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Inspiration
#1652 - 2012-06-22 21:12:17 UTC
Xython wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Arrgthepirate wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


That is a pretty single sided view on the matter.
If you had just proven the issue and not abuse it to no end, it would not been punished don't you think?

And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned!

Scamming player is perfectly fine in this game, but NOT ALL scamming NPC so it seems. It would be good if CCP highlighted where the line is precisely. That way you would know for sure how far you can go!



Nothing was produced from nothing. THey spent real isk to acquire assets. Get your facts right.


I never said you produced something from nothing, you are mistaken me for someone else that run that argument. You did however gained excess LP that was convertible to goods and you did it by scamming the system. In this instance trough market manipulation (but not manipulating players), where with the pos example i think it was a bug with the effect of also flooding the market with stuff that realistically should not have been there in those quantities.

SO before you accuse me of something, and I know your pissed right now, get your facts straight indeed!


"excess LP" = something from nothing. Otherwise, it wouldn't be "excess", right?


That is one way to look at it, but its not producing which was the argument being made to me.

I am serious!

Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#1653 - 2012-06-22 21:12:50 UTC
Time Funnel wrote:
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.

I think the message is really, file a bug report and don't exploit the bug/design flaw.


Let me tell you what happens when you file a bug report: nothing. Some people abuse the system for a year, and then they deal with it after "too many" people find out about it.

If only a few people know about it and exploit it it is no problem. Once the general population is aware of it, then it becomes a problem and then the exploiters have to find the next bug.

Then don't complain when they take your stuff? Really, I'm sorry for their loses, but...
Why not say CCP here's the situation....I'm about to blow up these ships...and....profit...!

Set the execution, but don't pull the trigger.

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1654 - 2012-06-22 21:13:09 UTC
Aryth wrote:


The more fair comparison, is to compare the CCP of today, with the CCP of years past. I am not trying to be all conspiracy theory here. But ever since they have gotten into bed with Sony, they seem to kneejerk much more readily to press. It's my belief that they are marketing driven now. A marketing department who doesn't understand the value of the sandbox, and just wants good press. Anything remotely negative gets you pounded. That is their right, but it's not the EVE many of us love.


CCP taking your ill gotten goods and a little extra sounds like a lite punishment to me. I expected some bannings. My guess is not getting banned is your reward for cooperating in the investigation. Plea bargaining and all.

I was never satisfied with the T20 incident, and that represents "old EvE". Maybe in "new EvE" things like that, and like this to some degree (I'll give you this was nothing compared to T20) will not be tolerated.

If you are planning on quitting because of this, I'd like to go on record with "Can I have your stuff"?
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1655 - 2012-06-22 21:13:13 UTC
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
one must ask what a world we have wrought when white hats are shat upon.


The 5 people involved were not white hats. They were grey hats.


white, grey, they are but differing shades of brown when shat upon
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1656 - 2012-06-22 21:13:28 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
All I can say is....


HA HA





Keep crying it's amusing.


as predicted, the pubbies are gloating despite the fact that they are far from capable of pulling these kinds of things off

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Geertruida Zelle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1657 - 2012-06-22 21:13:47 UTC
ok, some enterprising Goons did some homework and found a loophole and made some isk.- they didn't break the "law", they found a "legal loophole" and used it to their advantage.

Now its fine that CCP fix the loophole, but random seizure of assets is a step too far.

Shame on you CCP, you have done another poop in your own Sandpit.
Ituhata
Killboard Padding Services
#1658 - 2012-06-22 21:14:14 UTC
Fuujin wrote:
I hear if you fit a destroyer or battlecruiser for maximum dps, you can shoot people and blow them up in high security space before CONCORD gets there.

Why, if enough people do this they could even destroy entire freighters! CCP, please investigate and ban!


Poking my nose in to point out the difference in a carjacking by thugs and a multibillion dollar corporation in the news for swindling the (your country here-ican) people out of trillions of dollars due to an oversight in federal rules. Bad press and knee-jerk reactions.
Udonor
Doomheim
#1659 - 2012-06-22 21:14:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Udonor
Really surprised CCP took negative action on this. Must have really pushed the embarassment button.

But I agree with the GOONs action. CCP is quite arrogant in ignoring reports of exploitable conditions.

I have reported how easily market conditions and averages can be exploited for years. I have watched other do so on a few billion ISK scale. And I admit I have tested my assumptions enough to see that it worked as I expected. Wasn't foolish enough to report it or continue given that I figured someone eventually do as the GOONs did - make it so obvious and grand CCP couldn't deny it.

In the meantime it was interesting how many EVE loyalists were willing to put on blinders. You could show them how it worked. But when you pointed to other areas of the market acting oddly - they tended to say CCP is on top of anything important and anyway that area of the market is too big to manipulate on any scale. They couldn't believe anyone had or would risk 100Bs ISK to manipulate 10-50% or more changes in market -- even when its was obvious that you couldn't lose ISK unless someone opposed you and was willing to lose big ISK doing so.

Unfortunately its now apparent that CCP itself took this show of loyalty by a small but significant fraction of players as partial proof that manipulation was not occurring and therefore not possible.

*** Contributing to the ease of manipulation of the EVE market is the lack of many RL constraints and differentiations such that the only realistic way to short circuit market price manipulation is to carry sale price with each item and then only include it in market data the first time its fitted to a ship. ****

Too many other times its impossible to tell -- retail from wholesale, buy orders (more a futures/wholesale market) from sell orders (at least items exists even if its not clearly going to enduser retail rather than wholesale). And what about all that loot with effectively zero manufacture cost and less labor than mining? ROFLMAO -- EVE markets really follow the rules for Black markets in RL which are significantly different than normal markets though some commonality exists as well. Heh its possible for items to be in high demand and low supply yet low priced to clear shelves or low demand and high supply yet unavailable (mostly deep in low or null sec) such that prices remain high.

And of course I love how the CCP price warning suggests to noobs that the market average is necessarily a good retail price EVE wide when this might be a region which effectively produces wholesale with few retail sales. ROFLMAO -- lots of noobs are scared to place goods at higher levels for fear its a rules violation.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1660 - 2012-06-22 21:14:38 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Aryth wrote:

As did I. They used to be. I guess not anymore though.


You talk like this time it's YOUR game that got ruined. And parody of the impossible, by your former big guy. I mean, even scripting this episode people would find it not believable.


It's your game too. Would you not like to be able to engage at manipulation on this scale?

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.