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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1601 - 2012-06-22 20:41:54 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Domer Pyle wrote:
this thread is chock full of goon tears. i am amused.

but, yeah, it seems that the goons went above and beyond helping ccp fix a bug, hence why they're taking the stuff you got from it, lol. makes sense to me.


they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference.

and yeah, the goon crying/feet stomping threadnaught that is inbound is only made more delicious when held in contrast to the smug "once again we won eve" OP


On the contrary. The very fixes CCP did, were the ones we suggested. We also suggested a long term fix that took days of internal debate to figure out the best fix for. We went way out of our way to explain the issue in detail, the possible fixes, and even later on when they exposed themselves to it happening again.


So then whats the problem? You'll get back the stuff they took that was unrelated to the problem.

Probably.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1602 - 2012-06-22 20:41:55 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference.


So the only people allowed to make bug reports are those willing to fly to Iceland and donate their time as computer programmers?

You make less and less sense the more you talk, PrONEncess Alia.
Vincent Athen
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1603 - 2012-06-22 20:41:57 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
corestwo wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


You do know you can file a bug report without inflating your wallet right?

If the wallet gets inflated in the process, it's logical to expect CCP will fix the whole problem.

The WHOLE problem, not the whole problem minus your finders fee.


Please justify CCP taking assets that were not earned through this.


CCP Sreegs posted (possible multiple times) that he'd make sure who trespassed (i.e. caught botting etc) would be beaten hard. This is possibly the "beaten hard" example.

Ah, yes, the "manipulate the markets to take advantage of FW" bot. I hear that's a really popular one among ice miners these days.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1604 - 2012-06-22 20:42:29 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Aryth wrote:
The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.

Uh, no.

And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.


By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old.


give it a rest.

No one sane thinks that while you giggled at your assets window and blew up freighter after freighter of your own and wrote your 15 page fit-for-Time-magazine OP you didn't know that was all going back.

if you did, wow... you seriously shot yourself in the foot with a bonehead move.

That is a type of criminal genius crossed with ineptness not seen outside of TV and movies. Your whole OP reads like when the criminal tells hero his complete plan not realizing he is buying enough time and providing enough evidence to put him away.


They seized assets that existed before the patch.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1605 - 2012-06-22 20:44:16 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Ghost Xray wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook.

If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect.


This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.


Well I reported mine to CCP. They won't take my stuff though, since I limited myself to just sending a ticket.

But hey, I'll never make to the news, like the growing forest does not make to the news like the tree that cracks and falls.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Inspiration
#1606 - 2012-06-22 20:44:30 UTC
Arrgthepirate wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


That is a pretty single sided view on the matter.
If you had just proven the issue and not abuse it to no end, it would not been punished don't you think?

And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned!

Scamming player is perfectly fine in this game, but NOT ALL scamming NPC so it seems. It would be good if CCP highlighted where the line is precisely. That way you would know for sure how far you can go!



Nothing was produced from nothing. THey spent real isk to acquire assets. Get your facts right.


I never said you produced something from nothing, you are mistaken me for someone else that run that argument. You did however gained excess LP that was convertible to goods and you did it by scamming the system. In this instance trough market manipulation (but not manipulating players), where with the pos example i think it was a bug with the effect of also flooding the market with stuff that realistically should not have been there in those quantities.

SO before you accuse me of something, and I know your pissed right now, get your facts straight indeed!

I am serious!

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#1607 - 2012-06-22 20:44:36 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Aryth wrote:
The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.

Uh, no.

And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.


By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old.


give it a rest.

No one sane thinks that while you giggled at your assets window and blew up freighter after freighter of your own and wrote your 15 page fit-for-Time-magazine OP you didn't know that was all going back.

if you did, wow... you seriously shot yourself in the foot with a bonehead move.

That is a type of criminal genius crossed with ineptness not seen outside of TV and movies. Your whole OP reads like when the criminal tells hero his complete plan not realizing he is buying enough time and providing enough evidence to put him away.


They seized assets that existed before the patch.


And we very much doubt CCP will simply give them back, because, you know, CCP.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Arrgthepirate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1608 - 2012-06-22 20:45:00 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Domer Pyle wrote:
this thread is chock full of goon tears. i am amused.

but, yeah, it seems that the goons went above and beyond helping ccp fix a bug, hence why they're taking the stuff you got from it, lol. makes sense to me.


they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference.

and yeah, the goon crying/feet stomping threadnaught that is inbound is only made more delicious when held in contrast to the smug "once again we won eve" OP


On the contrary. The very fixes CCP did, were the ones we suggested. We also suggested a long term fix that took days of internal debate to figure out the best fix for. We went way out of our way to explain the issue in detail, the possible fixes, and even later on when they exposed themselves to it happening again.


So then whats the problem? You'll get back the stuff they took that was unrelated to the problem.

Probably.


Still bitter about the RIT triangle?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1609 - 2012-06-22 20:45:08 UTC
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
In chaos theory, there's a concept known as sensitive dependence upon initial conditions. Most people know it as the Butterfly Effect.

In EVE, we call it the sandbox.



HAHAHAHA just kidding not actually a sandbox


Grats, you found out it's a money box. CCP's money box.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1610 - 2012-06-22 20:45:24 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Aryth wrote:
The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.

Uh, no.

And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.


By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old.


give it a rest.

No one sane thinks that while you giggled at your assets window and blew up freighter after freighter of your own and wrote your 15 page fit-for-Time-magazine OP you didn't know that was all going back.

if you did, wow... you seriously shot yourself in the foot with a bonehead move.

That is a type of criminal genius crossed with ineptness not seen outside of TV and movies. Your whole OP reads like when the criminal tells hero his complete plan not realizing he is buying enough time and providing enough evidence to put him away.


They seized assets that existed before the patch.


yeah, but you did this to yourselves. you know how hamfisted their investigations are. expecting more here is as much a failure on your part as it is on theirs.

save the crying for when they don't give stuff back they should have. until then, they probably will return unrelated stuff
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1611 - 2012-06-22 20:46:00 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Arrgthepirate wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


That is a pretty single sided view on the matter.
If you had just proven the issue and not abuse it to no end, it would not been punished don't you think?

And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned!

Scamming player is perfectly fine in this game, but NOT ALL scamming NPC so it seems. It would be good if CCP highlighted where the line is precisely. That way you would know for sure how far you can go!



Nothing was produced from nothing. THey spent real isk to acquire assets. Get your facts right.


I never said you produced something from nothing, you are mistaken me for someone else that run that argument. You did however gained excess LP that was convertible to goods and you did it by scamming the system. In this instance trough market manipulation (but not manipulating players), where with the pos example i think it was a bug with the effect of also flooding the market with stuff that realistically should not have been there in those quantities.

SO before you accuse me of something, and I know your pissed right now, get your facts straight indeed!


"excess LP" = something from nothing. Otherwise, it wouldn't be "excess", right?
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1612 - 2012-06-22 20:46:49 UTC
Aryth wrote:


On the contrary. The very fixes CCP did, were the ones we suggested. We also suggested a long term fix that took days of internal debate to figure out the best fix for. We went way out of our way to explain the issue in detail, the possible fixes, and even later on when they exposed themselves to it happening again.


Great! Next time do all that and leave out the "oh, and yeah, I pilfered 5trillion isk worth of junk and screwed up faction wars for a few weeks, I hope that's cool."

Or don't. Nobody asked you to QA. Just like the Goon policy of not reporting Goon bots because "well, it's not our job to police botters, that's CCP's job - Mittens", don't take it upon yourselves to QA new code.

You may find this hard to believe, but CCP doesn't live and die based on what you guys do in this game. I'm sure it can manage just fine without you. Get over yourselves ffs.


Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#1613 - 2012-06-22 20:47:16 UTC
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.

I think the message is really, file a bug report and don't exploit the bug/design flaw.

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1614 - 2012-06-22 20:50:43 UTC
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.



I believe a certain Mr K. U. Gutsumen could have told you that.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1615 - 2012-06-22 20:51:22 UTC
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" - Upton Sinclair

The situation presented looks like an exploit. I know that some people have a hard time understanding this because they have bought into the propaganda of those who would love to do a bit of exploiting. I am sorry if you have deluded yourself into thinking that a bit of quick logic will protect you when something looks like an exploit. I hope that any actions by CCP will be interpreted by future players as be careful around things that look like an exploit.

If assets are being taken, and if those assets were not involved in the exploit then I am sorry. Unfortunately I don't think CCP has the time to do a full forensic analysis of the situation. Perhaps CCP will return some of the losses in time, or perhaps they will just count it as the wages of being involved in an active exploit.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1616 - 2012-06-22 20:51:36 UTC
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.

I think the message is really, file a bug report.


This has worked really well in the past, I hear.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#1617 - 2012-06-22 20:52:01 UTC
Xython wrote:


"excess LP" = something from nothing. Otherwise, it wouldn't be "excess", right?


Excess has never, nor will it ever, mean something from nothing.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Werst Dendenahzees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1618 - 2012-06-22 20:53:56 UTC
Alright, that was a nice test. Now all we have to do is never go public with those 3 worse money making gimmicks.
Nikodiemus
Ganja Clade
Shadow Cartel
#1619 - 2012-06-22 20:53:57 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Aryth wrote:
The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.

Uh, no.

And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.


By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old.


give it a rest.

No one sane thinks that while you giggled at your assets window and blew up freighter after freighter of your own and wrote your 15 page fit-for-Time-magazine OP you didn't know that was all going back.

if you did, wow... you seriously shot yourself in the foot with a bonehead move.

That is a type of criminal genius crossed with ineptness not seen outside of TV and movies. Your whole OP reads like when the criminal tells hero his complete plan not realizing he is buying enough time and providing enough evidence to put him away.


They seized assets that existed before the patch.


This is how you learn.
Lili Lu
#1620 - 2012-06-22 20:54:36 UTC
Howy Cwap this thread is at 80+ pages! I stopped reading yesterday about where Weaslior realized that Jade in fact did know about this before the "official" publication of it.

What's the latest? In a short synopsis please.P