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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#1561 - 2012-06-22 20:29:02 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I'm curious, are you actually angry that some people, who took it upon themselves to knowingly abuse a broken game mechanic to throw a massive section of the market as well as faction warfare in to complete disarray in order to profit personally to the tune of hundreds of billions, now have the threat of rightful retribution hanging over their heads?


there is literally nothing wrong with doing what you detailed

there are other things involved here


How can knowingly abusing a game mechanic you KNOW is broken, be OK?

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1562 - 2012-06-22 20:29:49 UTC
It's more than that. To justify seizing everything, and even assets unreleated to FW, they have to be saying, using their own game mechanics, and the design they were repeatedly told was bad, is an exploit. That is what is so chilling about it.

This isn't the CCP of 2 years ago. Sonyfied CCP is not the CCP we know and love. They are something different now. It wasn't until it hit PCGamer they took actoin.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1563 - 2012-06-22 20:30:39 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:

How can knowingly abusing a game mechanic you KNOW is broken, be OK?

pos bowling was always obviously broken but nobody ever got banned

anywho i expect the gms are operating on a philosophy of seize first, investigate later to minimize the potential for the trail to be cold, we shall see where things shake out

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1564 - 2012-06-22 20:30:54 UTC
Xython wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Ghost Xray wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook.

If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect.


This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.


well see, no

They really aren't trying to punish you I'm sure. They are just trying to reverse the problem you simultaneously pointed out and created. If they wanted to punish you they'd ban you.


WE did not create any problems. CCP did.

WE told CCP about it in part by showing just how much it could be abused by the more autistic people in our community so they would realize how badly THEY screwed up. In response, they are punishing us for our good deed.

Read this thread again. Other people knew about this and were doing it, just not to our extent. This would have been abused for months until CCP noticed, if they ever did, without Aryth and the Goon econ team's intervention.

No one in Goonswarm expected this to not be rolled back. Not realistically. We did it for two reasons: To show just had badly CCP messed up (directly to them), and, after having warned CCP ourselves, to give the tinfoil hat wearing ladies and gentlemen on these forums something to spurge about. However, using this as an excuse to punish those who revealed this poorly designed game mechanic is absolutely, unequivocally, wrong.

CCP owes Aryth an apology for overcorrecting and deleting funds not related to this -- I certainly hope they decide to do so shortly. In addition, they need to look through at accounts such as Jade Constantine to make sure all people who did this "exploit" have their funds rolled back.


They aren't punishing you. You did nothing wrong. No one is getting banned here.

They are just trying to completely fix teh problem you were nice enough to point out at your own in-game expense. Part of that fixing is getting rid of the stuff gained using the problem. You understand.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#1565 - 2012-06-22 20:30:56 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I'm curious, are you actually angry that some people, who took it upon themselves to knowingly abuse a broken game mechanic to throw a massive section of the market as well as faction warfare in to complete disarray in order to profit personally to the tune of hundreds of billions, now have the threat of rightful retribution hanging over their heads?


there is literally nothing wrong with doing what you detailed

there are other things involved here


How can knowingly abusing a game mechanic you KNOW is broken, be OK?


I think what he is saying is that CCP is going far beyond the scope of the manipulation and is removing things that were owned beforehand.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1566 - 2012-06-22 20:31:39 UTC
Ugh.

Time to go play some World of Warplanes, me thinks.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#1567 - 2012-06-22 20:31:43 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:


They aren't punishing you. You did nothing wrong. No one is getting banned here.

They are just trying to completely fix teh problem you were nice enough to point out at your own in-game expense. Part of that fixing is getting rid of the stuff gained using the problem. You understand.


But they're taking more than that. >_>

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1568 - 2012-06-22 20:31:45 UTC
Aryth wrote:
This isn't the CCP of 2 years ago. Sonyfied CCP is not the CCP we know and love. They are something different now. It wasn't until it hit PCGamer they took actoin.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1569 - 2012-06-22 20:31:52 UTC
Aryth wrote:
It's more than that. To justify seizing everything, and even assets unreleated to FW, they have to be saying, using their own game mechanics, and the design they were repeatedly told was bad, is an exploit. That is what is so chilling about it.

This isn't the CCP of 2 years ago. Sonyfied CCP is not the CCP we know and love. They are something different now. It wasn't until it hit PCGamer they took actoin.


They usually lock down everything until they can figure out exactly what is what and complete the investigation.

But you know all about eve, the ins, the outs. So you knew they would do this.
Nikodiemus
Ganja Clade
Shadow Cartel
#1570 - 2012-06-22 20:31:56 UTC
Aryth wrote:
CCP is currently in the process of yanking tons of stuff from our accounts. Far beyond what was profited from. The sandbox indeed is not quite as sandboxy as we thought.


Good. This is what happens when you manipulate the system in a way it was not designed, screw people over with mechanics, and **** in the sandbox.
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#1571 - 2012-06-22 20:31:56 UTC
Udonor wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:

Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case.

Provide proof.

Those instances are proof that very similar situations in the past were dealt with by changing the mechanic in question, with no repercussions to the people using them to profit. Precedent is set with them. Where is your proof that those cases are wrong?



Actually CCP does take assets for true exploits of a CODING mistake. Like several years ago certain manufacturing processes weren't consuming inputs and you got outputs for free. Heh people got banned for that.

This case is only an exploit in the ethical/philosophical sense. The code did EXACTLY what CCP desired. This was a case where CCP game designers failed to fully consider the consequences of the rules they set forth. Its no different from ship fitting rules that CCP eventually had to nerf in the past. Maybe a little more dramatic than most fitting mistakes (modules, stacking etc) that give someone too much advantage.

I suspect CCP will handle this just like combats involving modules they have had to nerf in in the past. Since no coding issues were involved -- What is done is done.



That was wrong too. Those people shouldn't have been banned either. Things have gotten so bad at CCP that I actually feel the need to defend the goons. This is a sad day!

Disclaimer. Assuming any of what has been reported is true!

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#1572 - 2012-06-22 20:32:15 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Ugh.

Time to go play some World of Warplanes, me thinks.


Giant Internet Robots Online. Oh wait, most of you can't. Big smile

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#1573 - 2012-06-22 20:32:18 UTC
Aryth wrote:
The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.

Uh, no.

And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#1574 - 2012-06-22 20:32:26 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:

How can knowingly abusing a game mechanic you KNOW is broken, be OK?

pos bowling was always obviously broken but nobody ever got banned

anywho i expect the gms are operating on a philosophy of seize first, investigate later to minimize the potential for the trail to be cold, we shall see where things shake out


Lets hope so. I'd hate for the concept that CCP no longer values their own sandbox to go viral. Bad PR is no fun. Sad

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Arrgthepirate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1575 - 2012-06-22 20:32:28 UTC
asd3452
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1576 - 2012-06-22 20:32:41 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:

They are just trying to completely fix teh problem you were nice enough to point out at your own in-game expense. Part of that fixing is getting rid of the stuff gained using the problem. You understand.


I know you are trolling, but CCP is taking items completely unrelated to the latest activities.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1577 - 2012-06-22 20:32:42 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:

They aren't punishing you. You did nothing wrong. No one is getting banned here.

They are just trying to completely fix teh problem you were nice enough to point out at your own in-game expense. Part of that fixing is getting rid of the stuff gained using the problem. You understand.

Wrong. They have taken MORE than they got from using the problem mechanic. Alot more.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1578 - 2012-06-22 20:32:46 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:


They aren't punishing you. You did nothing wrong. No one is getting banned here.

They are just trying to completely fix teh problem you were nice enough to point out at your own in-game expense. Part of that fixing is getting rid of the stuff gained using the problem. You understand.


But they're taking more than that. >_>


read my last. this is how their process works when addressing stuff of this scale
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1579 - 2012-06-22 20:32:55 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:

They aren't punishing you. You did nothing wrong. No one is getting banned here.

They are just trying to completely fix teh problem you were nice enough to point out at your own in-game expense. Part of that fixing is getting rid of the stuff gained using the problem. You understand.


If that's what they were doing, we wouldn't be up in arms. They are not just doing that. They are removing assets that the Goon Economics team had prior to this situation that had nothing to do with our demonstration of the poorly designed FW change.

Please understand -- if this was just rolling back the 5 trillion, we'd be fine. It's beyond that.
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1580 - 2012-06-22 20:32:57 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I'm curious, are you actually angry that some people, who took it upon themselves to knowingly abuse a broken game mechanic to throw a massive section of the market as well as faction warfare in to complete disarray in order to profit personally to the tune of hundreds of billions, now have the threat of rightful retribution hanging over their heads?


there is literally nothing wrong with doing what you detailed

there are other things involved here


How can knowingly abusing a game mechanic you KNOW is broken, be OK?


we can, for example, use our massive amount of tech ISK (tech being a broken mechanic) to do exactly what you said

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration