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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1441 - 2012-06-22 19:20:47 UTC
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Ayllia Saken wrote:

If CCP takes no action, then I believe that they are effectively stating that "End-Game" for the "Eve Financial Game" is looking for, and exploiting, loopholes in their complicated mechanics. Bugs, loopholes, and other shortcuts will always occur, so asking CCP not to release buggy software isn't a practical option.



This has been the endgame since the launch of EVE. Market manipulation and speculation is what we do day to day. This isn't a new thing for me or others, this is regular gameplay. This one just combined a few different mechanics into one larger system. But if you aren't patch speculating on each new CCP addition to the game, then you are really missing out on a cool part of EVE.

******

Except for the part where it requires an army of 5000 coordinaated participants to break the reasonably intended bounds of the game feature...

Lack of game balance for the fail.


I am not sure what you could be referring to. I have never seen an occurrence where it took more than 20-30 guys to participate in that endgame. Most of the times it's single digits. I do it by myself. I suppose you could be referring to nullsec domination? Far beyond the scope of what I was talking about though.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Signal11th
#1442 - 2012-06-22 19:21:09 UTC
It seems alot of people just can't understand "no rules were broken" get over it FFS

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#1443 - 2012-06-22 19:22:01 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:


Second, I'd say this is pretty doomsday and went on for long enough that you should have reacted to the needs of your constituency. Instead, according to Goon accounts, Minmatar FW as a whole did a bunch of back-patting when Tier 5 was reached in nearly every system. You had to know that was impossible. Further, you were obligated to listen to your opposition, who were obviously saying that something was wrong - a snowball effect.


Ahhh, now I see where you're coming from. You're just basing your reaction off Goon reports and not bothering to actually examine the system, otherwise you'd realize that achieving tier 5 is quite possible, and quite easy.

56 systems are necessary to achieve WZ control level V, and it takes 100,000 LP to upgrade a system to level 5. Thus, a total of 5.6 million LP is needed to achieve Tier V. 5.6 million LP is easily earned in a *single afternoon* by a handful of individuals. There are several *thousand* minmatar pilots out upgrading systems and earning LP.

Now yes, they Goons propped us up for a period of time, but the idea that we can't ever hit it again is silly. It'll just be lower for a while due to the constant bleed that exists in the system and will require more coordination in timing to achieve the same thing, but its by no means impossible. I know *individual* pilots in the various militias currently capable of bankrolling this themselves.

But by all means, continue to ignore facts and the fact that I've explained twice now that I warned CCP of the "snowball" I got all day. Cool

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1444 - 2012-06-22 19:22:04 UTC
Pisov viet wrote:
Quote:
LP can be turned into isk (by getting items that can be sold on the market)

I guess the part where Eve is a free market and where LP store require isk in addition of LP just flew over your head.

Don't forget the subtle edit from "turned into isk (from thin air)" into "turned into isk (by getting items that can be sold on the market)".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1445 - 2012-06-22 19:23:13 UTC
Betrinna Cantis wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Betrinna Cantis wrote:
The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not.

That might make sense.

If it were not for the fact that punishing people who did nothing in a system that they are paying you to use will only drive away innocent, paying customers.

CCP not doing anything about something is one thing, them actively pushing a 9000 person group for the actions of 5 of them will just cause them to go out of business. After all, if that happens, what happens when someone joins your corp, and then violates the rules? Will you happily accept punishment for actions you did not know about, by someone you cannot control?

Or would you, like any sane person, say 'F this, I'm cancelling my account and CCP gets no more of my money?'

Good point. But if a member of my corporation ever had done something like this,the banhammer would have already fallen and the thread would have died 68 pages ago.

Nope. It might not be a 70+ page thread if it wasn't a goon, but they would not be banned, and if brought to the forums there would still be a huge debate over it.

And I would be backing your friend, because he would have been in the right, and awesome to boot.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1446 - 2012-06-22 19:23:36 UTC
Aryth wrote:
I suppose you could be referring to nullsec domination? Far beyond the scope of what I was talking about though.


using our numbers to an advantage in a "massively multiplayer online game" is an exploit

you heard it on eve-o first

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Inspiration
#1447 - 2012-06-22 19:24:42 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected.

It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :)


Insurance had nothing to do with what we were doing, you know.


Duh.....but if you look closely, the core of the whole matter is using market manipulation to get NPC favors! FW made it extra easy and lucrative as playing both sites gives extra control over the outcome! The same thing could be done with insurance to a lesser extend as that too is rooted in in-game market statistics.

I am serious!

Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#1448 - 2012-06-22 19:25:15 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:


Second, I'd say this is pretty doomsday and went on for long enough that you should have reacted to the needs of your constituency. Instead, according to Goon accounts, Minmatar FW as a whole did a bunch of back-patting when Tier 5 was reached in nearly every system. You had to know that was impossible. Further, you were obligated to listen to your opposition, who were obviously saying that something was wrong - a snowball effect.


Ahhh, now I see where you're coming from. You're just basing your reaction off Goon reports and not bothering to actually examine the system, otherwise you'd realize that achieving tier 5 is quite possible, and quite easy.

56 systems are necessary to achieve WZ control level V, and it takes 100,000 LP to upgrade a system to level 5. Thus, a total of 5.6 million LP is needed to achieve Tier V. 5.6 million LP is easily earned in a *single afternoon* by a handful of individuals. There are several *thousand* minmatar pilots out upgrading systems and earning LP.

Now yes, they Goons propped us up for a period of time, but the idea that we can't ever hit it again is silly. It'll just be lower for a while due to the constant bleed that exists in the system and will require more coordination in timing to achieve the same thing, but its by no means impossible. I know *individual* pilots in the various militias currently capable of bankrolling this themselves.

But by all means, continue to ignore facts and the fact that I've explained twice now that I warned CCP of the "snowball" I got all day. Cool


I'm pretty sure it takes 100k LP to get a system from lvl 4 to lvl 5, and 250k to go from nothing to lvl 5.

So it get to a maximum (to get 56 systems to 5 without owning anything else) of 14m LP. Which isnt that much to begin with in FW.
Silly Slot
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1449 - 2012-06-22 19:25:45 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,


At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. Don’t be That Guy.



By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.



Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?





I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.


Umm last i recall exploiting bugs, even if CCP aren't aware of them yet, is still exploiting werent there people banned for doing crap like that even to the forums, let alone the frigging actual market and game... They exploited a flaw in the system, and did so KNOWINGLY, and then fluanted the fact that they did it thats just begging for repricussions
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1450 - 2012-06-22 19:25:51 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

56 systems are necessary to achieve WZ control level V, and it takes 100,000 LP to upgrade a system to level 5. Thus, a total of 5.6 million LP is needed to achieve Tier V. 5.6 million LP is easily earned in a *single afternoon* by a handful of individuals. There are several *thousand* minmatar pilots out upgrading systems and earning LP.

It is one thing to earh 5.6m LP. It is another to get 5.6m lp donated in a system where you can't discourage free riding. You got t5 only because a group of people controlled so much LP that it was in their interests to jack up the tier themselves: without goons donating you would not have maintained tier4. We know this because you kept nearly falling out of it and getting millions injected to stop you.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1451 - 2012-06-22 19:26:19 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Aryth wrote:
I suppose you could be referring to nullsec domination? Far beyond the scope of what I was talking about though.


using our numbers to an advantage in a "massively multiplayer online game" is an exploit

you heard it on eve-o first

Nah, people been saying having friends is cheating for years.

Now THAT is something I want to see in the EULA, a clause banning having friends. Pirate

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1452 - 2012-06-22 19:26:20 UTC
Silly Slot wrote:
Umm last i recall exploiting bugs

It's not a bug.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1453 - 2012-06-22 19:26:24 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:


Second, I'd say this is pretty doomsday and went on for long enough that you should have reacted to the needs of your constituency. Instead, according to Goon accounts, Minmatar FW as a whole did a bunch of back-patting when Tier 5 was reached in nearly every system. You had to know that was impossible. Further, you were obligated to listen to your opposition, who were obviously saying that something was wrong - a snowball effect.


Ahhh, now I see where you're coming from. You're just basing your reaction off Goon reports and not bothering to actually examine the system, otherwise you'd realize that achieving tier 5 is quite possible, and quite easy.

56 systems are necessary to achieve WZ control level V, and it takes 100,000 LP to upgrade a system to level 5. Thus, a total of 5.6 million LP is needed to achieve Tier V. 5.6 million LP is easily earned in a *single afternoon* by a handful of individuals. There are several *thousand* minmatar pilots out upgrading systems and earning LP.

Now yes, they Goons propped us up for a period of time, but the idea that we can't ever hit it again is silly. It'll just be lower for a while due to the constant bleed that exists in the system and will require more coordination in timing to achieve the same thing, but its by no means impossible. I know *individual* pilots in the various militias currently capable of bankrolling this themselves.

But by all means, continue to ignore facts and the fact that I've explained twice now that I warned CCP of the "snowball" I got all day. Cool



I think you guys are totally capable of going to T5 without propping up. However, it's a big game of prisoners dilemma. Do you have enough people willing to donate so that others can profit on their backs. Spreading out the load obviously makes the barrier lower, but it is still fundamentally a somewhat altruistic act. Something not often found in EVE. The further you guys get from T5 the harder the dilemma gets.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1454 - 2012-06-22 19:27:51 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
corestwo wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected.

It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :)


Insurance had nothing to do with what we were doing, you know.


Duh.....but if you look closely, the core of the whole matter is using market manipulation to get NPC favors! FW made it extra easy and lucrative as playing both sites gives extra control over the outcome! The same thing could be done with insurance to a lesser extend as that too is rooted in in-game market statistics.

It already has been, and that caused the insurance nerf.

New to EVE are we?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1455 - 2012-06-22 19:28:00 UTC
The use of third-party tools such as excel.exe and calc.exe and all variants is hereby banned.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1456 - 2012-06-22 19:28:12 UTC
Silly Slot wrote:
Umm last i recall exploiting bugs, even if CCP aren't aware of them yet, is still exploiting werent there people banned for doing crap like that even to the forums, let alone the frigging actual market and game... They exploited a flaw in the system, and did so KNOWINGLY, and then fluanted the fact that they did it thats just begging for repricussions


you're comparing two totally different situations

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1457 - 2012-06-22 19:28:51 UTC
Xython wrote:
I really don't envy the CCP team right now. On the one hand, the temptation to do something is outrageous I'm sure. On the other hand, technically speaking Aryth and the rest of the Economic specialists in Goonswarm did absolutely nothing wrong, they just happened to do this absolutely nothing wrong to an unhealthy extreme. Or, if you prefer, a "Goonish" extreme.

On the other hand, 5 Trillion ISK isn't that much -- that's what, 2, 3 months of Goonswarm's income? I had originally heard that it was 1 Quadrillion (1000 Trillion) ISK, which gave me the strangest feeling in my happy spot.

As an aside: It's kinda funny, but I'm pretty sure Goonswarm "employs" more Economics Majors than CCP does. ;)




Q: How many economics majors does it take to listen to a player who, with facts and figures laid out, points out that a proposed mechanism change could lead to extreme results

A: At least one more than CCP employ, since we've been through this whole thing at least 4 times already that I know of, and almost certainly several times more.

Seriously, the only thing different about this event is that it was specifically goons who benefitted.

And, well... since everyone knows that goonies are naughty bad wrong, then it's obvious that they need to be punished.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Mukuro Gravedigger
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1458 - 2012-06-22 19:30:06 UTC
Is it me, or are posts from this thread being erased? I will read so far into the thread, check out another thread or two, return here and find the last post I read a few pages back or outright missing!

My occular implant must be going out again.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#1459 - 2012-06-22 19:30:57 UTC
Quote:
Because I actually read the post of Sreeg, and he talked of "manpulation", not "abuse".


CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,


At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. Don’t be That Guy.



By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.


internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Udonor
Doomheim
#1460 - 2012-06-22 19:31:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Udonor
I predict CCP will fail at addressing the real long term problem associated with this game flaw. I believe that up to now the GOONs have not wagged the whole economy on purpose. But when a group's monthly operations budget has 10s of trillions ISK and many of its members 100s of billions ISK its normal trade manipulations and for a lark experiments can impact large areas of EVE. And those days of disinterest in EVE wide control may be over.

The problem is that CCP has failed to provide anything meaningful for very wealthy groups to spend their ISK upon -- something MEANINGFUL to an endgame for EVE (when someone can be declared winner and then a fresh player scenario started). EVE is about flying ships to WIN.

*** I suggest player groups be allowed hostile stockmarket takeovers of NPC Empire corporations. That should absorb a good deal of excess liquid capital from huge null sec groups and I think factional warfare would become much more spontaneous.****

CCP should expect that any group with 100s of trillion in excess ISK will be bored with ordinary game play. They have nothing worthwhile to do with all that cash. As i understand it most long term Goons have already paid their subscriptions ahead for years. Ship losses are meaningless. If they all decide to start a fight and log off so their enemies can claim an empty victory...they can just buy new fleets and suffer only the pain of fitting the new ships.

Very few original or current EVE players have a lot of interest in endless SIMS soap opera about who has collected the most clothes....which unfortunately seems to be where CCP thinks EVE should go. Not that a few cool uniforms might not be nice for celebrating victories. Maybe CCP needs to think of branching off a 3rd political-social game for EVE-DUST watchers that is mostly just attached to EVE (gambling on battle outcomes etc) -- instead of changing the purpose of EVE.