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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Balkor Wolf
Doomheim
#801 - 2012-06-22 08:09:04 UTC
Hats off to the Goons, you guys made a day at work that bit more interesting Big smile
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#802 - 2012-06-22 08:09:37 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:


OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting.

Again.

And CCP lets them stay.

And its directly because you cant afford to ban them.

Absolutely disgusting.

Consider me unsubbed.


oh man, how did this get past without the formal response?

can i have your stuff?
Kmelx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#803 - 2012-06-22 08:18:34 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,


At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. Don’t be That Guy.



By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.


Empty threats, best threats!
Vincent VanDamme
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#804 - 2012-06-22 08:25:43 UTC
So, a bug was abused?

This is a no brainer, isn't it?
atrum dux
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#805 - 2012-06-22 08:28:03 UTC
So it worked as intended until some guys decided to throw in some billions of isk on their own to help the oppressed. CCP wants the minmatar back into slavery. Someone should batphone the UN.
Wille Sanara
No Shoosting
#806 - 2012-06-22 08:28:07 UTC
So...exploiting a game mechanic that is obviously not working as intended is a bug, right? So we are going to see banhammer strike, right, CCP?Shocked
saltrock0000
State War Academy
Caldari State
#807 - 2012-06-22 08:29:35 UTC
So CCP just totaly went against thier entire ethos.

"Eve is a sandbox"

Yet CCP changed the average price of items on the market. Not very much of a sandbox if you ask me, CCP should pick a stance on the whole thing and stick to it, not allow alot of lets be honest bannable things because "eves a sandbox" and then act on others because "eves a sandbox".


Goons really opened my eyes to what a hypocritical company CCP is, picking the line "eves a sandbox" when they cant be bother'd to act on something, like say, hulkageddon or griefing. Then instantly jumping on something like this.

All goons did to my understanding was play the games withing the rules, with some amrket manipulation afterall eves a sandbox.



Byt the way did i mention "EVES A SANDBOX"

\'''\<(o_O)>/'''/
atrum dux
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#808 - 2012-06-22 08:32:04 UTC
Wait so I'm getting banned for manipulating the jita market?
Vincent VanDamme
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#809 - 2012-06-22 08:32:46 UTC
atrum dux wrote:
So it worked as intended until some guys decided to throw in some billions of isk on their own to help the oppressed. CCP wants the minmatar back into slavery. Someone should batphone the UN.


I doubt it worked as intended. At all.

The description makes it clear people found an exploit..and exploited it.

This is a no brainer really.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#810 - 2012-06-22 08:33:10 UTC
Kmelx wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.

Empty threats, best threats!

Keep in mind that CCP Sreegs is the one who disqualified Hydra and OB from ATX. He is also the one who routinely seizes ISK and assets, and applies the ban hammer, to RMT accounts. He would not be my first choice of CCP devs to accuse of making empty threats.
Vincent VanDamme
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#811 - 2012-06-22 08:33:18 UTC
atrum dux wrote:
Wait so I'm getting banned for manipulating the jita market?


Nope.

Bug abuse i think is whats being referenced.
Wasse
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#812 - 2012-06-22 08:34:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Wasse
Mme Pinkerton wrote:
Crellion wrote:


Wasse wrote:
I really fail to understand how or why anyone could call this an exploit of a bug.

there are bugs in game design and there are bugs in the implementation of game design.


this is one of the former.


As someone who works for a software company (business software, but still software), I've never once heard bad design called a bug. Really, this is the difference.

Bug = code not doing what it was supposed to.
Bad Design = Well, bad Design. Things happen that you didn't intend to happen, but it's not a direct result. It's a result of gaming the system.

In my realm, if the GL account suddenly goes negative $150,000, and there is no reason for it, that's a bug. In essence, the software took money away. It got lost somewhere. Or if it went positive $150,000, it created money in some transaction.

Bug. That's not what happened here.

On the other hand, if a sales guy figured out how to get game the Incentives module - and figured out the best practice for getting extra incentives - well, that's bad design. Not a bug. Just he gamed the system.

That's what they did here. They looked at the rules, and they used the rules to their advantage. Period.
Khardia Melanchton
Know your Role
#813 - 2012-06-22 08:35:05 UTC
My congratulations to the folks creating this really impressive market manipulation strategy. I was really impressed about your creativity and analytical abilities. Was great for me to read, and I must say, I really felt like a noob compared to this great idea. Wow!

Nevertheless, we will see how the market reacts to it. As a strong believer in market mechanism, you may end up finding that your increadible wealth is just several magnitutes smaller than you think right now.
From a economical perspective you (1) removed a reasonable amount of ISK from the game and (2) piled up huge stocks of LP items, as it seems mostly implants and faction ships. A non-fail market will react to this with falling prices for such items and higher prices for ISK, which means, the prices for the items you gained will drop dramatically. Actually, they already dropped.

As clever you behaved, I am sure, you are aware of this and will either try to sell items before the market really found it's new equilibrium or sell only in small amounts over a very long time period.

However, your profit from this impressive market manipulation will, nevertheless, be HUGE!

My congratulations, this was a coup!
Khardia
InternetSpaceship
State War Academy
Caldari State
#814 - 2012-06-22 08:36:01 UTC  |  Edited by: InternetSpaceship
Vincent VanDamme wrote:
So, a bug was abused?

This is a no brainer, isn't it?




Is orbiting a ship at 500m with mwd to make it harder to shoot you an exploit?

Because it's the same thing here. They used a game mechanic provided to them, studied it, understood it, and used it to help themselves succeed in the game. Everything worked exactly as it should have. Nothing was exploited at all.

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.
Vincent VanDamme
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#815 - 2012-06-22 08:36:20 UTC
saltrock0000 wrote:
So CCP just totaly went against thier entire ethos.

"Eve is a sandbox"

Yet CCP changed the average price of items on the market. Not very much of a sandbox if you ask me, CCP should pick a stance on the whole thing and stick to it, not allow alot of lets be honest bannable things because "eves a sandbox" and then act on others because "eves a sandbox".


Goons really opened my eyes to what a hypocritical company CCP is, picking the line "eves a sandbox" when they cant be bother'd to act on something, like say, hulkageddon or griefing. Then instantly jumping on something like this.

All goons did to my understanding was play the games withing the rules, with some amrket manipulation afterall eves a sandbox.



Byt the way did i mention "EVES A SANDBOX"


I don't think this is accurate at all. Its very strawman.

If someone breaks your game, you fix it. Thats what you do.

I think the quote :
"By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse"

Lets you know what occurred.

Abuse.

Profiting from abuse, in any form, really needs to be stamped out. Otherwise you'll have a ton of people saying "But i didn't know it was bug abuse" as they try to tear the systems apart looking for the next exploit.

This is the same as the Reactions exploit. No different.
Scottacus XIV
O C C U P Y
#816 - 2012-06-22 08:37:21 UTC
Crellion wrote:
I am torn on this. Of course I don't want goonies to keep the iskies because it inflates the hell out of my iskies and everyone else's :P


Actually, because of the nature of what they did, no ISK was created. Instead, they had to pay ISK (this destroys the ISK) into the LP stores in order to receive items which they then sold to players for their ISK. In fact, because the ISK was destroyed, there is less ISK in three system. Therefore, your ISK is now worth very very slightly more than it did before.

What they did do, however, was flood the market with LP items and devalue the **** out of them.
Wasse
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#817 - 2012-06-22 08:38:02 UTC
InternetSpaceship wrote:
Vincent VanDamme wrote:
So, a bug was abused?

This is a no brainer, isn't it?




Is orbiting a ship at 500m with mwd to make it harder to shoot you an exploit?

Because it's the same thing here. They used a game mechanic provided to them, studied it, understood it, and used it to help themselves succeed in the game. Everything worked exactly as it should have.


Similar idea. I think cloakies camping in systems is bad game design. Cloaking was never intended for such a purpose. Since they can essentially stop someone from making isk in that system, we should make their wallets go negative for it.

After all, they are exploiting bad game design.
Vincent VanDamme
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#818 - 2012-06-22 08:41:22 UTC
InternetSpaceship wrote:
Vincent VanDamme wrote:
So, a bug was abused?

This is a no brainer, isn't it?




Is orbiting a ship at 500m with mwd to make it harder to shoot you an exploit?

Because it's the same thing here. They used a game mechanic provided to them, studied it, understood it, and used it to help themselves succeed in the game. Everything worked exactly as it should have.


Is debuffing your ships so they have unlimited range an exploit?


1: Was this the intended use of this mechanic?
No

2: Were the people involved aware this was not the intended use of this mechanic?
Yes

3: Did the people involved profit from the unintended use of this mechanic?
Yes


I understand these people are your friends, in your corp. And i understand some people see "Goonswarm" and go crazy due to some perceived hatred of a group of players just playing the game. So it seems as if GSF is being attacked. I hope i don't come across as anti-GSF, that isnt the case I assure you.

This isn't really a metagame issue.

Whoever did this, no matter what corp they are in, did bug abuse.

Its a no brainer.

I've banned players on our games for less.
Vincent VanDamme
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#819 - 2012-06-22 08:41:59 UTC
Wasse wrote:
InternetSpaceship wrote:
Vincent VanDamme wrote:
So, a bug was abused?

This is a no brainer, isn't it?




Is orbiting a ship at 500m with mwd to make it harder to shoot you an exploit?

Because it's the same thing here. They used a game mechanic provided to them, studied it, understood it, and used it to help themselves succeed in the game. Everything worked exactly as it should have.


Similar idea. I think cloakies camping in systems is bad game design. Cloaking was never intended for such a purpose. Since they can essentially stop someone from making isk in that system, we should make their wallets go negative for it.

After all, they are exploiting bad game design.


Your debate style is terrible. One is not related to another!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#820 - 2012-06-22 08:42:53 UTC
Wille Sanara wrote:
So...exploiting a game mechanic that is obviously not working as intended is a bug, right? So we are going to see banhammer strike, right, CCP?Shocked

By that logic neut logis should be banhammered, people evading wardecs through neutral alts should be banhammered, people blapping BSes with tracking-fit titans should be banhammered etc.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat