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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Frying Doom
#3121 - 2012-06-24 13:38:28 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Danfen Fenix wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

You mean the nothing which happened to any one specific person after insurance fraud, PI, PA and tracking titans were tweaked to try to avoid undesirable behavior?



Ok. So say someone gets away with murder. Could be they have a good laywer, there is little evidence, or it's simply the judges decision.

Are you saying everyone should get away with murder, simply due to that case? People constantly complain that CCP does nothing. Well looky here...they've done something. HTFU.

Real life != EVE Online.

And there should be absolutely no lack of "evidence" in these cases. The only difference between this case and insurance fraud, PI, PA and tracking titans have been the aftermath of CCP's butterfinger effect.

I agree completely with you CCP has butterfingered alot.

Stand with Lord Zim and show CCP that no more butterfingering will be tolerated.

Precedent exists they should use it.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#3122 - 2012-06-24 13:38:37 UTC
Enaris Kerle wrote:

I don't think you understand how a discussion works.

Huh.

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
Yuffu Kurvora
Doomheim
#3123 - 2012-06-24 13:40:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Yuffu Kurvora
Shocked
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#3124 - 2012-06-24 13:42:45 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Haikato Saraki wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.



this has been stated and restated several times in this threadanaught but all it really boils down to is; "we weren't as evil as we could have been."
...which as far as legal defences go is only slightly better than "the b!tch had it coming."


If it had been Jade instead of you who had found and abused this, would you seriously try to tell me you would be lobbying as hard for them to keep the assets gained from this exploit?
Honestly, seems to me that the only reason the involved "jewbal" haven't been banned is BECAUSE they brought it to CCP's attention. I sincerely hope that you DO try to keep it hush-hush the next time you find something like this because when CCP uncovers that future exploit your gona lose a lot more than you did today.


epic exploit was epic, but did you really expect to crash the LP markets with an exploit and get away with it?

Please demonstrate how this was an exploit when CCP hasn't even completed their explanation. That's a mighty big strawman you built there.


CCP Sreegs wrote:


It is absolutely true. It's even mentioned in the OP. That's not the entirety of the exploit of course but it does increase the damage window.


CCP Sreegs wrote:


When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.


Sreegs:

"I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".

We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that."

Thats a pretty big lie youve got there unless of course Sreegs isnt CCP in your mind
Sreegs:

"We knew what was going on but it takes time to see scale. I'm going to warn you once not to misrepresent us in this thread and then I'm going to have your posting privileges revoked forever. Please do not interfere with our communication to our customers by inventing falsehoods."

May wanna be careful about lying bout this


And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3125 - 2012-06-24 13:43:42 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Or that exploiting a bug like the POS exploit with CCP giving permanent bans and destroying POS's wasn't a big enough hint?

The basic fact is they did things that the PI, insurance and all the other alterations showed CCP considered bad, adding to this they exploited a bug like the POS bug to extremes.

I've pointed out repeatedly how there's a qualitative difference between ferrogel duping and PI/Insurance Fraud/Pax. You pretend it's exactly the same. Not even CCP agrees with you, as is obvious from the fact that the guys who duped ferrogel got banned and the ones who blew up their ships to collect insurance didn't.

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#3126 - 2012-06-24 13:47:47 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Or that exploiting a bug like the POS exploit with CCP giving permanent bans and destroying POS's wasn't a big enough hint?

That was abusing an undocumented sideeffect of a programming bug, not using well-documented (with formulas in a devblog, even) game mechanics. This means the ferrogel duping which ev0ke did is something you would have to stumble upon by accident, whereas insurance fraud, PI and PA are all things which everyone can find out about by reading and understanding how the game mechanics work, which means that if CCP hadn't made changes, everyone would've done it because it would be common knowledge. Unlike the programming bugs, which aren't documented so not everyone can see it for themselves.

Frying Doom wrote:
The basic fact is they did things that the PI, insurance and all the other alterations showed CCP considered bad

The precedence set by these events were "change the game mechanic, move on".

Frying Doom wrote:
adding to this they exploited a bug like the POS bug to extremes.

Again, this was the use of a programming bug, which is a very different matter.

Frying Doom wrote:
and now members of Goonswarm don't think they should get punishments

Show me where I've said they should not get any punishment whatsoever. I haven't, all I've done is point out 3 other cases where game mechanics were used in exactly the same form, by a fair bit of other people outside of goonswarm, I might add, and there were no repercussions there. I'd like to know what made this case different.

Frying Doom wrote:
like the POS fools.

Again, undocumented programming bug != well documented and public game mechanic.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#3127 - 2012-06-24 13:48:46 UTC
Dave stark wrote:


the entire point is whether they were within the limits of the sandbox or not. to me, they were.


To CCP they were not. YOU do not matter

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#3128 - 2012-06-24 13:48:58 UTC
Just read the OP for the first time...




It appears to be about a small handful of people with nothing better to do in their life then find programming loop holes for CCP, without receiving real money compensation for all of their hours of effort, graphs, statistics and tedium. The op is presenting his findings with an obvious measure of pride and bluster, but I imagine that the heads at CCP are happy that all this was sorted out quickly, thanks to the actions of a select few EVE lifers in game.


I did an epic face palm and gave a deep sigh after I read this. Shocked






Why don't you go 4x4 through something in real life and apply all of this effort to some kind of real life success? This is one of the most pathetic things that I have ever read. Arrow




[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3129 - 2012-06-24 13:50:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Elysium Foxx
I'm not sure the PI, PA, tracking Titans, or insurance scam really hold any relevance to this event.
None of those had the potential to endlessly print LP that could be used to completely ruin faction warfare and crash entire sections of markets whilst also making anyone who took part in the exploit insanely rich.

This event will be, and should be handled on its own merits, and any abuse of exploits, bugs etc. in the past and going into the future should be handled on a case by case basis. That is just the way things are... If you don't understand that you are a fool.

Lets be clear this WAS abusing an exploit. Please stop referring to RL situations and wiki references. If you are going to use a reference use a viable, peer reviewed, professionally respected one, such as this text book i'm using for a University degree - which has a definition of an exploit.

"blah blah.... or, an exploit can be a documented process to take advantage of a vulnerability or exposure, usually in software, that is either inherent in the software or is created by the attacker. .... blah blah."

page 10 chapter 1
Principles of Information Security
by, Michael E. Whitman & Herbert J. Mattord

The so called "faction five" have clearly abused a known vulnerability in the game mechanics, and should be punished accordingly.
Its actually quite amusing that they thought nothing would happen, did they really think they'd get to keep the ISK, LP and assets, really? Oh no thats right, they were helping CCP to make the game better for all of us - lol
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#3130 - 2012-06-24 13:50:19 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
May wanna be careful about lying bout this

You're implying some of us are lying, I take it?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#3131 - 2012-06-24 13:50:24 UTC
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Or that exploiting a bug like the POS exploit with CCP giving permanent bans and destroying POS's wasn't a big enough hint?

The basic fact is they did things that the PI, insurance and all the other alterations showed CCP considered bad, adding to this they exploited a bug like the POS bug to extremes.

I've pointed out repeatedly how there's a qualitative difference between ferrogel duping and PI/Insurance Fraud/Pax. You pretend it's exactly the same. Not even CCP agrees with you, as is obvious from the fact that the guys who duped ferrogel got banned and the ones who blew up their ships to collect insurance didn't.

yes there is a difference the POS one was done extensively by a small group of people in a blatent disregard for any form of reason. Kind of like this LP bug.

The insurance PI ect.. were good warning posts, not to be a complete idiot before getting to the level of the POS guys.

The LP guys flew straight past the warnings and off the cliff with the POS guys.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3132 - 2012-06-24 13:52:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
Lord Zim wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
Would you agree that you cannot have good design and have bugs since the design has to be implemented every time you make a change to the code? If yes, then all of the above posted by you is incorrect.

A design just lays out what something should do, when it should do what, and how it should react to certain situations. The programmer then sets out to implement that design.

It doesn't matter how awesome the req spec, tech spec and design doc is for a feature, if the programmer sucks, just like it doesn't matter how awesome the programmer is, if the req spec, tech spec and design doc's content contain a flawed design. You can have an awesome design and a suckass implementation, or a ****** design but an awesome implementation. It's not an if x is good, then y is good kind of situation.

Andrea Roche wrote:
If no then "you" obviously dont do design everytime you implemente code, so its viable to bugs/features/run time errors etc.

No design document has any impact on programmer mistakes, inability to implement certain features or lack of input parameter checks.


You did not agree with
"Would you agree that you cannot have good design and have bugs since the design has to be implemented every time you make a change to the code? If yes, then all of the above posted by you is incorrect."

Bugs/features are part of bad design. Even run time errors are part of bad design.
If the design is correct then we got no errors or bugs.
Design is a continuous thing and not just a one time thing. Everytime you make a change you need to produce a desing.
The desing maybe wrong or the implementation of the design maybe wrong or both.
If the design is wrong then the implementation will also be wrong!
If the design was good but the implementation of the design by the developer was wrong then the implemented code is wrong and does not comply with the initial design and therefore the new design coded with the faulty code is wrong!
In either case you will get flaws and bugs.

Since you did not agree to the above, we have nothing else to talk about. Just gonna go in circles.
Too stuburn. With no disrect.
You simply cant argue that.

In the end, the owners disagree with you and happens to agree with me.
This is a lost case! Unless all you want is to troll someone to death Twisted!
Frying Doom
#3133 - 2012-06-24 13:53:03 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

Again, undocumented programming bug != well documented and public game mechanic.

If it was a well documented game mechanic, why was it reported to be a bug? because even though they documented it, it was still a bug.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#3134 - 2012-06-24 13:54:02 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
yes there is a difference the POS one

Was done by someone figuring out a programming mistake in the code which wasn't documented anywhere.
Frying Doom wrote:
Kind of like this LP bug.

Except that was all done using information which was very public, which means everyone could've (and probably were on their way to doing as well) inferred the same and done it themselves.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
captain foivos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3135 - 2012-06-24 13:54:39 UTC
So when did buying something from an LP store--which thousands of players do every day, I might add--become an illegal, punishable exploit? I mean, I would be thrilled if we banned all highsec mission runners and lowsec FW frigate-plexers, but I digress.
Dave stark
#3136 - 2012-06-24 13:54:58 UTC
hey guys, want to know the truth of the situation?

until tomorrow, you know nothing.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#3137 - 2012-06-24 13:56:28 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
What goes around, turns around, be glad yourself that Darwin has not put his gaze on you yet.
Fascinating.

So far in this thread you have told me you are orchestrating some scheme to have me banned, you have told me what I am and am not allowed to post and now you are hoping that I die in real life.

All over your little forum ego.

Very interesting.


Didnt mittens get 30 days for a similar event?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

captain foivos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3138 - 2012-06-24 13:56:57 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
hey guys, want to know the truth of the situation?

until tomorrow, you know nothing.


Your corp name is spelled wrong, FYI.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#3139 - 2012-06-24 13:58:17 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up. But this has happened before

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626

the result was POS's blown up and accounts permanently banned.

As they have stated "As clearly stipulated in our rules and policies, exploiting is strictly prohibited. In our Suspension and Ban Policy there is a special clause about so-called "duping" exploits. Employing this sort of exploit will lead to permanent bans for anyone directly involved as well as possible reprimands for players who benefit from such exploits from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts."

So anything less than what has previously occurred would be favoritism, anything more would be unfair.

So at least the perpetrators know what to expect.

but the "How will this not happen again?" is worth reading Lol

This has been brought up multiple times, and it's not applicable as it was an actual software defect in EVE. It was brought to CCP's attention multiple times over a few years until something made CCP finally actually take notice (presumably, the exploit became so widely used it was actually noticeable in some graph or something).

What aryth etc did was not utilize a software defect, everything was legal according to game mechanics.


Not according to CCP lol

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Dave stark
#3140 - 2012-06-24 13:58:56 UTC
captain foivos wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
hey guys, want to know the truth of the situation?

until tomorrow, you know nothing.


Your corp name is spelled wrong, FYI.


i know. you just can't get the staff these days.