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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Frying Doom
#3061 - 2012-06-24 12:36:00 UTC
Actually this is kind of funny even though everything wikipedia, dictionaries and CCP's rules are against Goonswarm's interpretation of this, they soldier on. Have to give them points for trying especially when there is so clear a precedent.

Reminds me of the expression to do with excrement and a hill Big smile

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#3062 - 2012-06-24 12:37:42 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
As stated before it was the size of the matter and the numbers involved. the POS was by 7 corps, this was by 1 alliance and very deliberate, you can not say all the others PI and insurance fraud were all deliberate.

1) "this" was done by 5 people. I had nothing to do with it, even though I wish I had just for the sheer thrill of it.
2) The PI were very deliberate, the effects are still felt today as a matter of fact.
3) Insurance fraud was very deliberate. You don't platinum insure a ship, undock, accidentally hit selfdestruct, dock up, platinum insure another ship, undock, accidentally hit selfdestruct etc etc etc hundreds of times, do you?

Frying Doom wrote:
Hell I lost ships to stupidity and got insurance but I did not blow up hundreds and post it in General Discussion.

So what you're saying is, it would have been better to just use the feature on a low scale and not tell CCP about it, and let them find out about it in a few years? Like the POS bug you keep talking about?

Umm maybe a petition and then not using the exploit would have been better, you know making the game better by reporting bugs.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#3063 - 2012-06-24 12:38:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Oisin Sandovar
Guess it's time to repost this.
Here's the link to start reviewing what CCP Sreegs has said, just keep clicking on his Dev tag and you'll go to the next one. Note these quotes are not necessarily in order.

So the arguments ongoing about software bugs/design glithch/yada yada yada are really pointless.

CCP Sreegs wrote:
I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.


CCP Sreegs wrote:
You know we won't comment on individual items on this forum and we welcome you to do the same.

Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest.

Nothing that's been printed by any news source is in any way accurate and any numbers that have been printed were made up by these "journalists".


CCP Sreegs wrote:
I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".

We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.


CCP Sreegs wrote:
Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this. The rest will be in the blog rather than invented at the keyboards of forum posters and bloggers.


So like I said, all the current raging is rather pointless.

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#3064 - 2012-06-24 12:39:16 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Umm maybe a petition and then not using the exploit would have been better, you know making the game better by reporting bugs.

It was reported, multiple times, while it was on sisi. CCP released it anyways.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#3065 - 2012-06-24 12:43:41 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Umm maybe a petition and then not using the exploit would have been better, you know making the game better by reporting bugs.

It was reported, multiple times, while it was on sisi. CCP released it anyways.

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do it. If you are going to do it and know it's wrong (as written in the OP), then expect the consequences.

CCP Sreegs wrote:
I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".

We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#3066 - 2012-06-24 12:45:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Guess it's time to repost this.
Here's the link to start reviewing what CCP Sreegs has said, just keep clicking on his Dev tag and you'll go to the next one. Note these quotes are not necessarily in order.

So the arguments ongoing about software bugs/design glithch/yada yada yada are really pointless.


CCP Sreegs wrote:
I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.

Just like insurance fraud, PI and PA and probably countless other situations, then. When will we start seeing them do anything to the guys who abused those mechanics?

CCP Sreegs wrote:
I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".

We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.

Insurance fraud: print money, crash markets
PI: print PI, crash markets
PA: print nocx, crash markets

vOv

CCP Sreegs wrote:
Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this. The rest will be in the blog rather than invented at the keyboards of forum posters and bloggers.

Design issue, not a programming issue, if we're pedantic.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#3067 - 2012-06-24 12:49:43 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Lots of pointless unpoints.
Design issue, not a programming issue, if we're pedantic.

Again, you can argue semantics all you want. If you don't want to read the messages that CCP Sreegs is providing, then you aren't willing to adapt.

Basically, CCP is saying the system was abused, they will fix the issue, they will clean up the mess, and they will decide about punishment.

Very simple. No arguments and is very clear.

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
Danfen Fenix
#3068 - 2012-06-24 12:51:54 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Umm maybe a petition and then not using the exploit would have been better, you know making the game better by reporting bugs.

It was reported, multiple times, while it was on sisi. CCP released it anyways.


Are you sure? Because, the OP states that this kind of stuff could not simply be tested on Sisi, so they waited until it released

Quote:
We laid in wait. Much of what we believed to be true could not be tested on SISI. Patch day came and we immediately moved into action, enrolling alts into Minmatar FW & Amarr FW and moving freighters full of delicious zydrine/nocxium/megacyte into position


How come, now you feel the consequences...the story suddenly changes?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#3069 - 2012-06-24 12:53:15 UTC
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Lots of pointless unpoints.
Design issue, not a programming issue, if we're pedantic.

Again, you can argue semantics all you want. If you don't want to read the messages that CCP Sreegs is providing, then you aren't willing to adapt.

Basically, CCP is saying the system was abused, they will fix the issue, they will clean up the mess, and they will decide about punishment.

Very simple. No arguments and is very clear.

So in other words, since the other examples I've provided weren't punished (and we could add tracking titans to that mix as well, since titans weren't designed to shoot f.ex daredevils, yet design issues with the tracking algorithm opens up for this), the ticket is to exploit design issues silently.

Gotcha.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#3070 - 2012-06-24 12:55:36 UTC
Danfen Fenix wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Umm maybe a petition and then not using the exploit would have been better, you know making the game better by reporting bugs.

It was reported, multiple times, while it was on sisi. CCP released it anyways.


Are you sure? Because, the OP states that this kind of stuff could not simply be tested on Sisi, so they waited until it released

It not being verifiable on sisi doesn't mean you can't see the potential for exploitation and report on it. This isn't rocket science.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#3071 - 2012-06-24 12:57:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Oisin Sandovar
Lord Zim wrote:
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Lots of pointless unpoints.
Design issue, not a programming issue, if we're pedantic.

Again, you can argue semantics all you want. If you don't want to read the messages that CCP Sreegs is providing, then you aren't willing to adapt.

Basically, CCP is saying the system was abused, they will fix the issue, they will clean up the mess, and they will decide about punishment.

Very simple. No arguments and is very clear.

So in other words, since the other examples I've provided weren't punished (and we could add tracking titans to that mix as well, since titans weren't designed to shoot f.ex daredevils, yet design issues with the tracking algorithm opens up for this), the ticket is to exploit design issues silently.

Gotcha.

Adapt or die. Isn't that what the Goons say? So, it seems like CCP is doing that. Any sane business or person would do it. If you and the Goons don't understand that, then I guess the Goons are not really who/what they say they are?

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
Frying Doom
#3072 - 2012-06-24 12:58:32 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Umm maybe a petition and then not using the exploit would have been better, you know making the game better by reporting bugs.

It was reported, multiple times, while it was on sisi. CCP released it anyways.

So the bug was reported multiple time on SiSi and these guys just went "well they haven't fixed it before release, so we will exploit it."

And you are now arguing they shouldn't be banned, the isk gotten shouldn't be forfeit and the goods bought with the LP bug should be confiscated.

That is as bad as it gets.

Have said it before the POS exploit and this punishment should be the same. Anything less is favoritism and anything more is too harsh.

CCP the precedent exists, use it.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Ivana Twinkle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3073 - 2012-06-24 13:00:40 UTC
Threads like this is what makes me happy that CCP doesn't listen to their customers feedback.
Dave Stark
#3074 - 2012-06-24 13:01:54 UTC
ccp intended people to get lp for popping ships.

if they didn't intend for people to get so much lp they should have done their sums right.
Danfen Fenix
#3075 - 2012-06-24 13:02:03 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Danfen Fenix wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Umm maybe a petition and then not using the exploit would have been better, you know making the game better by reporting bugs.

It was reported, multiple times, while it was on sisi. CCP released it anyways.


Are you sure? Because, the OP states that this kind of stuff could not simply be tested on Sisi, so they waited until it released

It not being verifiable on sisi doesn't mean you can't see the potential for exploitation and report on it. This isn't rocket science.


Even so then...if they reported it, seeing (in your words) the "potential for exploitation"...

Why the on release did they still proceed to exploit it? You surely can not be argueing that they should get off scott free even thought it was released in that state, when they knew perfectly well it would be deemed an exploit?
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3076 - 2012-06-24 13:03:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Enaris Kerle
Ivana Twinkle wrote:
Threads like this is what makes me happy that CCP doesn't listen to their customers feedback.

I wish they had listened when their customers told them to hire a competent PR department.




Instead we got CCP Sreegs.

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#3077 - 2012-06-24 13:03:46 UTC
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Adapt or die. Isn't that what the Goons say? So, it seems like CCP is doing that. Any sane business or person would do it. If you and the Goons don't understand that, then I guess the Goons are not really who/what they say they are?

Oh, I know exactly what'll happen if I stumble upon a design issue one of these days.

Frying Doom wrote:
And you are now arguing they shouldn't be banned, the isk gotten shouldn't be forfeit and the goods bought with the LP bug should be confiscated.

No, I'm not. I'm pointing out 3-4 other mechanics with design issues in them which have been exploited quite extensively, where nothing has happened beyond the design issue being fixed (and the jury is still out on the titan tracking, I haven't kept up on that lately), and asking what made them different from this case.

Frying Doom wrote:
That is as bad as it gets.

Stop reading things which aren't there.

Frying Doom wrote:
Have said it before the POS exploit and this punishment should be the same. Anything less is favoritism and anything more is too harsh.

The POS issue was a programming bug, which isn't the same as this case at all. The closest you'll get to this case is insurance fraud, PI, PA and tracking titans, where design issues were utilized.

Frying Doom wrote:
CCP the precedent exists, use it.

The precedence they set in insurance fraud, PI, PA and tracking titans, which was the same thing as this case? Or the POS exploit, which was the exploitation of a programming bug?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Ivana Twinkle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3078 - 2012-06-24 13:06:19 UTC
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Ivana Twinkle wrote:
Threads like this is what makes me happy that CCP doesn't listen to their customers feedback.

I wish they had listened when their customers told them to hire a PR department.




Instead we got CCP Sreegs.


At least he's good at sniffing Hot Sauce. :v:
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#3079 - 2012-06-24 13:06:46 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Lon list of meaningless dribble.

Then you haven't read or reflected on the things that Sreegs has said. One day you'll run afoul and will be permabanned. I await that day sir.

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
Deamos
Hideaway Hunters
The Hideaway.
#3080 - 2012-06-24 13:07:59 UTC
Now after reading all these pages and pages about this issue, I thought I would chime in with my opinion.

Normally I would say, protect the sandbox. However, there are a few things that stand out.

Goons used what was thought to be a valid mechanic to make the iskies/LP. Now if they truly believed this was a valid mechanic, why was there a forum post boasting about how this was done? While violation of the specific in place rules were not breached, violation of the spirit of the rules was. Goons felt that this should not be, yet did it anyways and then bragged about it.
I would think that if it were something that I felt was valid, I would continue on like nothing was different. Instead this thread was formed.

So what would you expect CCP to do? Patch it and forgive/ignore or step in and say "Hey guys, you should have known this was not intended to be this way, you can't keep it"

Keep in mind there were many incidents where something like this has happened in Eve and CCP has always ruled based on the spirit of the terms of service. If I remember correctly, the Yulai incident began as a stretching of the game mechanics to slaughter players in High Security.

Just my humble opinion, feel free to flame away.