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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#3021 - 2012-06-24 11:08:50 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up. But this has happened before

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626

the result was POS's blown up and accounts permanently banned.

As they have stated "As clearly stipulated in our rules and policies, exploiting is strictly prohibited. In our Suspension and Ban Policy there is a special clause about so-called "duping" exploits. Employing this sort of exploit will lead to permanent bans for anyone directly involved as well as possible reprimands for players who benefit from such exploits from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts."

So anything less than what has previously occurred would be favoritism, anything more would be unfair.

So at least the perpetrators know what to expect.

but the "How will this not happen again?" is worth reading Lol
From that article and the critical point in this current discussion:
Quote:
Free stuff has entered the system.
Nothing free entered the system in this market manipulation.

CCP dropped the ball pure and simple. CCP Screegs can carry on all he likes about it in the many posts in this thread but it doesn't change the fact they messed up the FW changes - badly. And how you take stuff off people who have done nothing but master the situation presented before them is beyond me. The problem for CCP is the scale. If it was 5 billion this just would have been patched.

CCP were just totally outplayed when they have an immense advantage and they don't like it. You can tell from the judgemental tone in CCP Screegs first post in this thread including the predetermined outcome.
Frying Doom
#3022 - 2012-06-24 11:14:51 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
]Nothing free entered the system in this market manipulation.

CCP dropped the ball pure and simple. CCP Screegs can carry on all he likes about it in the many posts in this thread but it doesn't change the fact they messed up the FW changes - badly. And how you take stuff off people who have done nothing but master the situation presented before them is beyond me. The problem for CCP is the scale. If it was 5 billion this just would have been patched.

CCP were just totally outplayed when they have an immense advantage and they don't like it. You can tell from the judgemental tone in CCP Screegs first post in this thread including the predetermined outcome.


As the Op stated "Inferno’s big design mistake was that it was released with a literal currency fountain, very nearly without limit. Unbeknownst to themselves, CCP had accidentally delved into the world of forex, providing a way to exchange one currency (isk) for another (LP) with only a few checks and balances built into the system."

So although it wasn't free per say, it was profitable. The POS exploit wasn't free either you had to buy and set up the POS to get the free stuff. Just as you had to purchase ships ect.. to profit from this exploit.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#3023 - 2012-06-24 11:17:41 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
because the mechanics were broken. There really isn't much of an argument it clearly comes under the "duping" exploits".
CCP screwed up on the FW but had a rule to cover it. Arguing that its not the same when covered by the same rule doesn't mean much.

Edit: Don't make me quote Wikipedia Big smile

So what about those guys who insurance frauded ships to earn money on them? What about the people who bought PA, back when it refined into nocx? What about the people who exploited CCP fuckups with regards to PI? All of them used legal game mechanics in ways CCP didn't intend, just like the FW mechanics, and all of them did exactly the same thing.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#3024 - 2012-06-24 11:21:37 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Graic Gabtar wrote:
]Nothing free entered the system in this market manipulation.

CCP dropped the ball pure and simple. CCP Screegs can carry on all he likes about it in the many posts in this thread but it doesn't change the fact they messed up the FW changes - badly. And how you take stuff off people who have done nothing but master the situation presented before them is beyond me. The problem for CCP is the scale. If it was 5 billion this just would have been patched.

CCP were just totally outplayed when they have an immense advantage and they don't like it. You can tell from the judgemental tone in CCP Screegs first post in this thread including the predetermined outcome.


As the Op stated "Inferno’s big design mistake was that it was released with a literal currency fountain, very nearly without limit. Unbeknownst to themselves, CCP had accidentally delved into the world of forex, providing a way to exchange one currency (isk) for another (LP) with only a few checks and balances built into the system."

So although it wasn't free per say, it was profitable. The POS exploit wasn't free either you had to buy and set up the POS to get the free stuff. Just as you had to purchase ships ect.. to profit from this exploit.
You get CCP to come out and say and prove:
Quote:
Free stuff has entered the system.
about this matter and I will reconsider.
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3025 - 2012-06-24 11:22:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Enaris Kerle
Lord Zim wrote:

So what about those guys who insurance frauded ships to earn money on them? What about the people who bought PA, back when it refined into nocx? What about the people who exploited CCP fuckups with regards to PI? All of them used legal game mechanics in ways CCP didn't intend, just like the FW mechanics, and all of them did exactly the same thing.

Funny how literally nobody except for Vaerah Vahrokha comments on that after it's been brought up multiple times, eh? I guess it doesn't fit into the narrative.

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Lian Asanari
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3026 - 2012-06-24 11:23:24 UTC
Anyone knows the story of Icarus?
Although, in EVE the stars don't give out heat Smile
Frying Doom
#3027 - 2012-06-24 11:26:21 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
because the mechanics were broken. There really isn't much of an argument it clearly comes under the "duping" exploits".
CCP screwed up on the FW but had a rule to cover it. Arguing that its not the same when covered by the same rule doesn't mean much.

Edit: Don't make me quote Wikipedia Big smile

So what about those guys who insurance frauded ships to earn money on them? What about the people who bought PA, back when it refined into nocx? What about the people who exploited CCP fuckups with regards to PI? All of them used legal game mechanics in ways CCP didn't intend, just like the FW mechanics, and all of them did exactly the same thing.


Each would be a case by case basis, I am not fully familiar with all of those, nor are they the point of this thread.

The basic case is exactly like the POS thread, an exploit was found and massively abused. The circumstances are similar so the punishments should be as well. It was not market manipulation that is player vs player. This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Alain Kinsella
#3028 - 2012-06-24 11:28:12 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Wow this thread got cleared of posts pretty heavily.
Should be at page 152 already.

Thanks for keeping it open, though ! :)


I'm sure it's an excellent honeypot right now.

"The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever."

Currently Retired / Semi-Casual (pending changes to RL concerns).
Frying Doom
#3029 - 2012-06-24 11:31:09 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
You get CCP to come out and say and prove:
Quote:
Free stuff has entered the system.
about this matter and I will reconsider.

Were more LP received than should have been? Yes.

So they got what they should have plus more. So they got Free LP. Go to a store its normally buy 2 get one free. This was buy 1 get 10 free.

Free LP entered the game.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#3030 - 2012-06-24 11:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
because the mechanics were broken. There really isn't much of an argument it clearly comes under the "duping" exploits".
CCP screwed up on the FW but had a rule to cover it. Arguing that its not the same when covered by the same rule doesn't mean much.

Edit: Don't make me quote Wikipedia Big smile

So what about those guys who insurance frauded ships to earn money on them? What about the people who bought PA, back when it refined into nocx? What about the people who exploited CCP fuckups with regards to PI? All of them used legal game mechanics in ways CCP didn't intend, just like the FW mechanics, and all of them did exactly the same thing.


Each would be a case by case basis, I am not fully familiar with all of those, nor are they the point of this thread.

Insurance frauding: buy ship for less than the minerals + insurance would cost, insure for platinum, blow up ship, spawn new isk. This was the business model of quite a few people.

PA: Whenever nocx reached 900 isk, buy PA, refine into nocx, sell on market.

PI: various POS equipment etc were refinable into various PI goods. Tons of people bought tons of equipment and refined it and got tons of PI goods.

Frying Doom wrote:
The basic case is exactly like the POS thread, an exploit was found and massively abused. The circumstances are similar so the punishments should be as well. It was not market manipulation that is player vs player. This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it.

No, it really isn't exactly like the POS thread, since the POS thread was an exploit of an actual software defect. The examples I provided were, however, exactly like "the FW exploit".

No bugs were exploited in this thread. The POS thread has its basis in an actual bug.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#3031 - 2012-06-24 11:39:14 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Graic Gabtar wrote:
You get CCP to come out and say and prove:
Quote:
Free stuff has entered the system.
about this matter and I will reconsider.

Were more LP received than should have been? Yes.

So they got what they should have plus more. So they got Free LP. Go to a store its normally buy 2 get one free. This was buy 1 get 10 free.

Free LP entered the game.

Insurance fraud: were more isk received than should have been? Given that CCP changed the way prices are calculated, Imn going to go with "yes". So they got what they should have plus more, so they got free ISK.

PA: were more nocx received than should have been? Given that CCP changed PA to refine into trit instead of nocx, I'm going to go with "yes".

PI: were more PI goods received than should have been? Given that CCP changed (or completely removed) the refinery options, I'm going to go with "yes".

None of them were software bugs, all of them were mechanics which could've done with more thought behind them. The POS mechanic was a software bug.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#3032 - 2012-06-24 11:44:11 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
The basic case is exactly like the POS thread, an exploit was found and massively abused. The circumstances are similar so the punishments should be as well. It was not market manipulation that is player vs player. This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it.

No, it really isn't exactly like the POS thread, since the POS thread was an exploit of an actual software defect. The examples I provided were, however, exactly like "the FW exploit".

No bugs were exploited in this thread. The POS thread has its basis in an actual bug.

To quote the OP again
"Formula

The “cost” in this equation was CCP’s own metric, which you can see by opening your cargo window or your station hangars and looking in the bottom right of the window. Therein lies the heart of the break -- CCP’s item value calculation was very vulnerable to manipulation. If you picked the right item, loaded hundreds of thousands of them into a Badger, then blew it up in the context of Faction Warfare, you could generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost. As long as you did the math right, the result was foolproof."

So it wasn't a software bug that made the equation so easy to manipulate? Please see underlined text.

As I said exactly the same. It was a software exploit. Being able to "generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost", sounds like a bug to me.

The only real question will be the next series of posts either "CCP to soft on Goonswarm Again" or "CCP kick Goonswarm in the goulies". I doubt it will be "CCP follows precedent".

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#3033 - 2012-06-24 11:48:37 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
So it wasn't a software bug that made the equation so easy to manipulate? Please see underlined text.

That's not a software bug, that's a poorly thought out design.

Frying Doom wrote:
As I said exactly the same. It was a software exploit. Being able to "generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost", sounds like a bug to me.

That's weak design, not a software exploit.

Frying Doom wrote:
The only real question will be the next series of posts either "CCP to soft on Goonswarm Again" or "CCP kick Goonswarm in the goulies". I doubt it will be "CCP follows precedent".

I guess everyone who blew up their ship for insurance money need to get kicked in the nuts, too. And everyone who bought PA and refined them into nocx. And everyone who got "free PI goods for practically no cost".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
LoveFromAbove
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3034 - 2012-06-24 11:48:53 UTC
Manipulating and exploiting are very different terms, you should probably learn the difference.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3035 - 2012-06-24 11:49:17 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Insurance frauding: buy ship for less than the minerals + insurance would cost, insure for platinum, blow up ship, spawn new isk. This was the business model of quite a few people.


In my ninja salvager times, i remember i scanned a megathron. (i think it was a mega ...)
I warped there and it was gone ... i only saw a wreck.

Confused, and talking in chat, suddenly a megathron warps in ...
... and initiates self destruct.

I convo'd him ... and he was confused how i got there. lol

I asked him what he was doing ... his short, but simple response was:

"Insurance fraud! :D"
Powers Sa
#3036 - 2012-06-24 11:51:31 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it.

So you're for the players getting to keep the loot?

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.
Frying Doom
#3037 - 2012-06-24 11:54:17 UTC
Powers Sa wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it.

So you're for the players getting to keep the loot?

I'm sorry I don't know how to respond to you, given your obvious mental difficulties.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
smokess
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3038 - 2012-06-24 11:54:54 UTC
I love you Screegs. You are awesome Big smile.
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#3039 - 2012-06-24 11:56:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinis Deren
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
because the mechanics were broken. There really isn't much of an argument it clearly comes under the "duping" exploits".
CCP screwed up on the FW but had a rule to cover it. Arguing that its not the same when covered by the same rule doesn't mean much.

Edit: Don't make me quote Wikipedia Big smile

So what about those guys who insurance frauded ships to earn money on them? What about the people who bought PA, back when it refined into nocx? What about the people who exploited CCP fuckups with regards to PI? All of them used legal game mechanics in ways CCP didn't intend, just like the FW mechanics, and all of them did exactly the same thing.


Well, the simple answer to that is the EULA and ToS have been changed multiple times since then. Also, remember that EvE Online is CCP's game, not yours. If you don't like what they say or do then quite simply GTFO, WoT is that way ---->

The only purpose this thread has served is to document the perpetrator's initial gloat changed to sperg filled tears. They took a risk in what they did and now they may well get a reward that is somewhat different to the one they were initially expecting.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#3040 - 2012-06-24 11:58:28 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Powers Sa wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
This was finding a hole in the game mechanic (an obviously broken one) and exploiting it.

So you're for the players getting to keep the loot?

I'm sorry I don't know how to respond to you, given your obvious mental difficulties.

The precedence set by everyone who exploited insurance fraud, PI, PA and probably countless others I'm forgetting offhand indicates that the players should keep the loot, since the only thing that was exploited was a design which could use more work. The ferrogel exploit, which you keep referring to, was a pure software bug, the design was sound.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat