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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3001 - 2012-06-24 09:24:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghost Xray
Pisov viet wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:

so you're saying that market manipulation should be bannable


I would not, I actually applaud at their genius.

But the game companies usually don't like this kind of genius played on their products, so - regardless of me or you liking it or not, they go very heavy handed.

Point in case, in WAR in the last months there have been:

- Mass people banning because they discovered they could get an health buff thru a pet by going in certain zones. Developers used a flawed formula... rings you something similar?

- Mass people perma banning with no recourse allowed because they discovered they could increase their stats a lot by clicking on certain NPCs, which applied a formula that could be gamed.

The comparison is wrong.

In both the cases you quoted, the players were performing an action that had an unexpected and unwanted result, disconnected from the game's design.

Here, the players did what they were supposed to do. They enroled in militia, they blew ships up, they gained LP for it. Then they figured how that LP was calculated, and made sure it would be as high as possible.

Unless the function calculating ship cargo value on the exchange price SOMEHOW wrote itself during the development, SOMEONE in CCP thought "Well, let's just calculate the average price at which it was exchanged.", and, apparently, nobody cared about that part, or nobody thought "hey, there are a fuckton of people running margin trading scams by labelling useless items higher than what they're worth. This may mean that average market prices is not representative of the item value".

A similar thing may have happened if someone in a FW was running such a scam, hauling a hundred of items he buys 1m and sell 1b, got blown up and the killer received LP based on 100*500m. He, too, would have received a huge amount of isk. And it wouldnt have been "exploiting a bug".


No, he didn't just "enroll in a militia and blow ships up". He enrolled in ALL militia's and blew up his own ships and gained LP for it.

And to me, that's where the rub is. I'm sure there are no rules against it, but I really think it goes against why Faction Wars was added.

How many of you have toons in CFC and say, Raiden and have them actually blowing each other up? And what do you think both group leaders would say if they knew you were doing something as stupid as that (aside for the whole espionage aspect.. but of course, the OP wasn't doing anything of that nature) just to throw the killboard stats off. That's lame no matter how you slice it.

Faction Wars wasn't added so someone could game the system. I'd be all in favor of adding restrictions for Faction Wars not allowing you to put alts into every faction. Faction Wars is a goofy concept in general in EvE. RVB is what Factions Wars should be. Player owned and operated.
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3002 - 2012-06-24 09:29:06 UTC
I think the minmatar faction leader would be sad that one of his own FW members would purposely blow up freighter loads of his own precious items that could have been used to help the faction war effort. Role playing is truely dead in EVE....

:(
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3003 - 2012-06-24 09:33:11 UTC
Elysium Foxx wrote:
I think the minmatar faction leader would be sad that one of his own FW members would purposely blow up freighter loads of his own precious items that could have been used to help the faction war effort. Role playing is truely dead in EVE....

:(


Yeah, what type of wars have you seen that had anything closely resembling that happening. Killing yourself in roll playing doesn't really make sense unless you're roll playing an Emo teenager.... ohhhh, now it all make sense how the OP came up with this! Lol
Dave stark
#3004 - 2012-06-24 09:33:53 UTC
Elysium Foxx wrote:
I think the minmatar faction leader would be sad that one of his own FW members would purposely blow up freighter loads of his own precious items that could have been used to help the faction war effort. Role playing is truely dead in EVE....

:(


i think it's very much alive, actually.

this game brings out the most sly, underhand, and interesting parts of a person's character.
between the anonymity of the internet, and the game's design almost rewarding ******* people over it lets you be that devious person you probably can't be in the real world.
Elysium Foxx
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3005 - 2012-06-24 09:35:18 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Elysium Foxx wrote:
I think the minmatar faction leader would be sad that one of his own FW members would purposely blow up freighter loads of his own precious items that could have been used to help the faction war effort. Role playing is truely dead in EVE....

:(


i think it's very much alive, actually.

this game brings out the most sly, underhand, and interesting parts of a person's character.
between the anonymity of the internet, and the game's design almost rewarding ******* people over it lets you be that devious person you probably can't be in the real world.


haha, yeh i guess you could spin it that way. : )

well played
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3006 - 2012-06-24 09:38:25 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Elysium Foxx wrote:
I think the minmatar faction leader would be sad that one of his own FW members would purposely blow up freighter loads of his own precious items that could have been used to help the faction war effort. Role playing is truely dead in EVE....

:(


i think it's very much alive, actually.

this game brings out the most sly, underhand, and interesting parts of a person's character.
between the anonymity of the internet, and the game's design almost rewarding ******* people over it lets you be that devious person you probably can't be in the real world.


And I'm all for ******* over PEOPLE, but in this case it was the NPC controlled Factions that were ****** over.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3007 - 2012-06-24 09:42:04 UTC
Ghost Xray wrote:
How many of you have toons in CFC and say, Raiden and have them actually blowing each other up?


Spies

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#3008 - 2012-06-24 09:47:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Graic Gabtar
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
What goes around, turns around, be glad yourself that Darwin has not put his gaze on you yet.
Fascinating.

So far in this thread you have told me you are orchestrating some scheme to have me banned, you have told me what I am and am not allowed to post and now you are hoping that I die in real life.

All over your little forum ego.

Very interesting.
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3009 - 2012-06-24 09:48:40 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Ghost Xray wrote:
How many of you have toons in CFC and say, Raiden and have them actually blowing each other up?


Spies


I guess you missed this part:

(aside for the whole espionage aspect.. but of course, the OP wasn't doing anything of that nature)
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3010 - 2012-06-24 09:56:12 UTC
Ghost Xray wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Ghost Xray wrote:
How many of you have toons in CFC and say, Raiden and have them actually blowing each other up?


Spies


I guess you missed this part:

(aside for the whole espionage aspect.. but of course, the OP wasn't doing anything of that nature)


sorry, I skim through alt posts

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3011 - 2012-06-24 10:15:58 UTC
*waiting for the next page to read*
Malacath Azaria
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3012 - 2012-06-24 10:18:02 UTC
Providing next page to read.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#3013 - 2012-06-24 10:27:03 UTC
Ghost Xray wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Ghost Xray wrote:
How many of you have toons in CFC and say, Raiden and have them actually blowing each other up?


Spies


I guess you missed this part:

(aside for the whole espionage aspect.. but of course, the OP wasn't doing anything of that nature)



Prencleeve alt spoted !!

"By Jun...erm, (/toss) by August!!"

brb
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#3014 - 2012-06-24 10:42:27 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Inappropriate post removed. Spitfire

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Frying Doom
#3015 - 2012-06-24 10:51:21 UTC
I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up. But this has happened before

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626

the result was POS's blown up and accounts permanently banned.

As they have stated "As clearly stipulated in our rules and policies, exploiting is strictly prohibited. In our Suspension and Ban Policy there is a special clause about so-called "duping" exploits. Employing this sort of exploit will lead to permanent bans for anyone directly involved as well as possible reprimands for players who benefit from such exploits from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts."

So anything less than what has previously occurred would be favoritism, anything more would be unfair.

So at least the perpetrators know what to expect.

but the "How will this not happen again?" is worth reading Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#3016 - 2012-06-24 10:53:21 UTC
Ghost Xray wrote:
have toons in CFC

Nobody. :catstare:

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#3017 - 2012-06-24 11:00:44 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
No, very made out of your butt, like your other posts.
Wow. It looks like our precious snowflake has revealed their true form.

Barely coherent, petty school yard insults in the form of a disturbing fascination with the contents of my colon.

I didn't realise that distilling your terrible posting to the basic facts and presenting it would be such an earth shattering experience for you.

Live and learn I guess sexy lady.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#3018 - 2012-06-24 11:01:11 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up. But this has happened before

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626

the result was POS's blown up and accounts permanently banned.

As they have stated "As clearly stipulated in our rules and policies, exploiting is strictly prohibited. In our Suspension and Ban Policy there is a special clause about so-called "duping" exploits. Employing this sort of exploit will lead to permanent bans for anyone directly involved as well as possible reprimands for players who benefit from such exploits from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts."

So anything less than what has previously occurred would be favoritism, anything more would be unfair.

So at least the perpetrators know what to expect.

but the "How will this not happen again?" is worth reading Lol

This has been brought up multiple times, and it's not applicable as it was an actual software defect in EVE. It was brought to CCP's attention multiple times over a few years until something made CCP finally actually take notice (presumably, the exploit became so widely used it was actually noticeable in some graph or something).

What aryth etc did was not utilize a software defect, everything was legal according to game mechanics.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#3019 - 2012-06-24 11:04:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up. But this has happened before

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626

the result was POS's blown up and accounts permanently banned.

As they have stated "As clearly stipulated in our rules and policies, exploiting is strictly prohibited. In our Suspension and Ban Policy there is a special clause about so-called "duping" exploits. Employing this sort of exploit will lead to permanent bans for anyone directly involved as well as possible reprimands for players who benefit from such exploits from removal of the items in question up to, and including, banning of their accounts."

So anything less than what has previously occurred would be favoritism, anything more would be unfair.

So at least the perpetrators know what to expect.

but the "How will this not happen again?" is worth reading Lol

This has been brought up multiple times, and it's not applicable as it was an actual software defect in EVE. It was brought to CCP's attention multiple times over a few years until something made CCP finally actually take notice (presumably, the exploit became so widely used it was actually noticeable in some graph or something).

What aryth etc did was not utilize a software defect, everything was legal according to game mechanics.

because the mechanics were broken. There really isn't much of an argument it clearly comes under the "duping" exploits".
CCP screwed up on the FW but had a rule to cover it. Arguing that its not the same when covered by the same rule doesn't mean much.

Edit: Don't make me quote Wikipedia Big smile

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3020 - 2012-06-24 11:06:08 UTC
Wow this thread got cleared of posts pretty heavily.
Should be at page 152 already.

Thanks for keeping it open, though ! :)