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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#2841 - 2012-06-24 01:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Inappropriate post removed. Spitfire

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#2842 - 2012-06-24 01:20:38 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Shai 'Hulud wrote:

It seems the new "golden rule" is: If an activity is profitable you should check with CCP to make sure it's not considered an exploit.


If I find out that pressing a certain combination of buttons on an ATM I get delivered 100M dollars maybe, just maybe, I wonder if it's intended. And maybe I am not surprised when at 4am the FBI slams my door and rips me a new one.

It's not like the flaw gave 5 or 20% more income, it gave a lil more.

An exploit is when you magically create something out of thin air like your 100M dollars - it didn't exist.

This wealth wasn't created by magic. There was a hypothesis, a plan and then its execution that worked legally within the bounds of CCP's game mechanics. CCP have already confirmed nothing that this so called "Jewbal" did was wrong.

And now that you are saying it's a crime to be too successful - pray tell where is that limit?

A one million ISK market manipulation? One billion? One hundred billion?

CCP were warned this could happen. Like most pre-patch feedback it was ignored and they were totally outplayed.

CCP are just trying to find a way to save face now.
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#2843 - 2012-06-24 01:23:20 UTC
David Carel wrote:
Eref Ataru wrote:
A flaw is a flaw. Intentional or not. The exploitation of a flaw is against the terms of use. Which according to the sign up is a ban not an asset freeze, not a slap on the wrists it clearly states ban.

When there was that exploit on the new forum which allowed people to see areas they couldn't CCP said then, thanks for pointing it out but leave it now, sees theres showing that a flaw is there then there's using a flaw to your advantage realising that it's gone too far, informing CCP of the flaw, and hoping it all goes away.

If goons had been sensible enough to keep it private between CCP and select others then, they probably would of kept the lot, now I think they have forced their hand, and as a player of this game I expect the full punishment of banned accounts, else the only message that gets sent out is that if you get caught they take it back, the message should be you exploit you get banned. Same as bots.


TOS wrote:

You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.


The only problem is, it's not a bug. The individual parts are working exactly as intended.
CCP have confirmed that there was no bug, or exploit, or flaw etc. No rules were broken.
Cahvus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2844 - 2012-06-24 01:24:40 UTC
DISCLAIMER: I have never had any sort of interactions with any goon of any sort and thus I have no allegiance or bias for or against them.

Although I admire the incredible creativity and planning that went into this I feel that there are a certain amount of misconceptions in this thread. Some of the people involved are saying that they online got involved because they wanted to "show CCP the significance and scope of this problem". Although their intentions are proclaimed to be noble, is it not similar to robbing a bank at gunpoint to iterate their lax security? (yes it is an extreme example but it is still relevant). All in all actions were taken that according to the information I have seen from this thread were abusive and/or exploitive to the game and thus the involved parties should have to face the consequences and penalties of their actions. To refer back to my previous analogy, you still robbed a bank whether you were attempting to help them see the errors of their ways or not.

Thank you.

Cahvus


Posted from my iPad.
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2845 - 2012-06-24 01:28:31 UTC
Use your signature feature instead of signing your posts.

Sincerely,

Fix Lag



Sent from my keyboard.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#2846 - 2012-06-24 01:30:23 UTC
Cahvus wrote:
Posted from my iPad.


You had to go and write that out just to let everyone know HEY GUYS I HAVE AN IPAD.


Roll

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Tallon Sylph
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2847 - 2012-06-24 01:31:24 UTC
There is no way that this can end in which Goons don't win. You must know this?
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#2848 - 2012-06-24 01:33:17 UTC
Benedic wrote:
I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits.


:sigh:

"wikipedia article" wrote:
An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw including glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] It is often colloquially abbreviated sploit. Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#2849 - 2012-06-24 01:33:24 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:

The only problem is, it's not a bug. The individual parts are working exactly as intended.CCP have confirmed that there was no bug, or exploit, or flaw etc. No rules were broken.


CCP Sreegs wrote:
I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.


CCP Sreegs wrote:
You know we won't comment on individual items on this forum and we welcome you to do the same.

Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest.

Nothing that's been printed by any news source is in any way accurate and any numbers that have been printed were made up by these "journalists".


CCP Sreegs wrote:
I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".

We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.


CCP Sreegs wrote:
Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this. The rest will be in the blog rather than invented at the keyboards of forum posters and bloggers.

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#2850 - 2012-06-24 01:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Please refrain from spreading rumors. Spitfire
Cahvus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2851 - 2012-06-24 01:40:14 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Cahvus wrote:
Posted from my iPad.


You had to go and write that out just to let everyone know HEY GUYS I HAVE AN IPAD.


Roll



It makes me feel special on the inside. Not all of us have swimming pools filled with LP the we can paddle around in and thus have to use other means to feel good :p
Dreiden Kisada
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2852 - 2012-06-24 01:42:16 UTC
*launches feature to give players LP based on manipulatable data
*players manipulate data and get more LP
*screams haxsploits and freaks out
*is ccp
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#2853 - 2012-06-24 01:42:38 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Quote:
You'll hear "Their actions are legitimate" from lots of non-goons too, you know.


Joe Paterno helped his buddy **** little boys and people said the same thing about him too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpraJYnbVtE

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Ascentior
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2854 - 2012-06-24 01:42:41 UTC
Aryth wrote:
A small group of market and game mechanics wizards sat in a channel, put their heads together and designed a theoretical exploit to game the system. It succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

I have highlighted the important part for you.

Let discussions of if the group involved thought this was an exploit or not stop. The very first thing they did is define this as an exploit. Also remember that everything in EVE remains the property of CCP.

Likening this to robbing a bank isn't important, as robbing a bank would be acceptable in EVE.
Duping items was something done in the past that was possible because of a failed game mechanic. It also didn't create ISK out of thin air, it did however, give people something to trade for ISK. Both cases are getting something of value (item to trade or LP to trade) by finding the hole in that game mechanic.
Market Manipulation was the way that they increased the amount that this exploit was capable of returning in a short amount of time (get as much as you can before you get caught). If they got caught or handed themselves in is not relevant (although in most systems, coming clean usually means some leniency).

Admiral of PIE Inc., Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris (See 'PIE Public' for recruitment)

Honorary Fabricator-General of the Imperial Navy

Chosen by God to serve the Empire.
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#2855 - 2012-06-24 01:47:48 UTC
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Lots of quotes.
From an interview CCP gave:

Quote:
Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#2856 - 2012-06-24 01:49:54 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Please refrain from personal attacks. Spitfire

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2857 - 2012-06-24 01:51:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
I love this thread. It is adding to my do not read this persons post file. The forums are so much better now that the tinfoil hatters are crawling out of the woodwork to be placed on that list.

Thanks Goons.



Feel free. Apparently smacking goonswarm over the head with a giant purple dildo has improved my standing in eve as one of eve's preeminent comedians.

I'd like to thank my fans for their kind words and evemails. I will, however, point out that the one from paint suggesting I 'dye in a fryer' might have done with a bit more revision before sending.

Or perhaps less vodka.



Graic Gabtar wrote:
From an interview CCP gave:

Quote:
Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "



Yeah, CCP Sreegs already addressed that, suggesting that we use the interview as toilet paper.

Cipher Jones wrote:

That's what hearsay is you pubtard, a second hand story.


Cipher, you might want ot consider not casting aspirations on other intelligence if you don't realize that he's talking about people giving first person eye witness accounts. While your definition is right, it's clear his point has warped to zero past you.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2858 - 2012-06-24 01:57:51 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Haquer wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay


Pack it in boys, the things that we heard straight from the people this happened to is hearsay.



That's what hearsay is you pubtard, a second hand story.


we're still waiting for you to tell us when your account lapses

after your 20th "I'M UNSUBBING" post

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#2859 - 2012-06-24 01:57:59 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Lots of quotes.


Saw what you did there. Link to interview please or it's in your head.
All of the quotes I pulled are in this thread.

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2860 - 2012-06-24 02:02:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
Oisin Sandovar wrote:

Link to interview please
or it's in your head.
All of the quotes I pulled
are in this thread.



He speaks, brave Oison
of the interview that CCP PR
didst give, lo these many hours ago.

Which Sreegs didst smite mightily
with an ironshod devhammer.